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2011 Archived Messages


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MONTHDATEDATEDATEDATEMONTHDATEDATEDATEDATE
January 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31 February 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-28
March 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31 April 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-30
May 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31 June 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-30
July 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31 August 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31
September 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-30 October 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31
November 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-30 December 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31

January 8—14

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] I have to open my big mouth ... and then nemesis as b***** Stanley puts an oar in!
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2011 09:30

This picture appeared in an article about a year ago and purports to be a few million year old fossilisedbee carrying orchid pollen.
Regards

john Stanley wrote Re: [OrchidTalk] I have to open my big mouth ... and then nemesis as b***** Stanley puts an oar in!

C mon Geoff, you know all this as well as I think I know (!) Global warming is a euphemism for increasing the energy in the global system, not all noticed as as heat in Europe, (isn t it?). That increase affects the global climate patterns (it was warmer in Greenland than in Europe for much of December and ice caps are certainly melting!). That increase in energy may be a consequence of a human-induced greenhouse effect or part of a natural reversion to glacial conditions. It isn t necessary to side with the proponents or the opponents to draw conclusions from sea level rise and temperature measurement results, either way, a reduction in human CO2 emissions is prudent. There have been climatic oscillations throughout Earth history and it seems pretty presumptuous to assume that that will change now humans are here! All the evidence is that we are in an interglacial within series of glacial-interglacial oscillations.

All I would argue with is the ridiculous use of the term Greenhouse effect which is a complete misnomer for a process which has minimal effect in a greenhouse! Our orchid house gets warmer from the inability of convected warm air to escape through the roof, much less from the difference of wavelength of re-radiated light/heat. An experiment was once done in the Arizona desert comparing a two glazed boxes. One had glass, the other halite (transparent to the wavelengths blocked by glass). Both were pretty equally efficient and the conclusion was that, as the internal air warmed, it was confined to an internal convection cell from which it couldn t escape the warming environment as could the unconfined outside air. I often wonder about the transmission properties of polycarbonate glaz ing and how it squares with the greenhouse effect sensu lato.

I suppose the greenhouse effect is now a misnomer we understand, accept and are lumbered with, a bit like quantum leap ( related, presumably, to packets of energy associated with a single electron) and decimated (to remove a tenth part).
I suspect you d need more than a quantum leap to clear your snowed-up gate Geoff but if you could find your shovel you might decimate the snow on the road! (and it isn t even a leap year although it ll soon be spring time).

To get more on track, does anyone know of good accounts of orchid evolution over more than the period within the last 10000 years? Without fossil evidence it is possible only to speculate on the current distributions N and S since then and, presumably, species most northerly and southerly are newer than the tropical ones (???????) Or is it simply that they ve moved further polewards. (Oops, now we re back to global warming and the northerly extension of habitats)

Roll on summer
Cheers
John

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Baxter
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Sulphur vaporisers
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2011 14:50

Does anybody have experience of using a sulphur vaporiser to control pests in their greenhouse?
I have seen Hotbox's product but not sure about orchid applications.
I use yellow sulphur very effectively on rot .
Any views?
Richard

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Baxter
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Sad news
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2011 19:10

For those of you who have not heard, I pass on the following message I have received from Johan Hermans........

Dear Richard,
I am very sad to let you know that Joyce Stewart passed away yesterday evening, after a short illness.
She specifically asked for her funeral to be very private and there are therefore no arrangements to tell you about.
People may want to contribute to the RHS Joyce Stewart Orchid Trophy or alternatively her husband Don said people could make a donation to a Cancer Charity of their choice, there are no other requests.
Her work in botany, orchids and gardening will always be remembered. We will miss her.
Johan

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: john Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] I have to open my big mouth ... and then nemesis as b***** Stanley puts an oar in!
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 00:55

Hi Dennis,
Thanks for the pic. I did see it when it was first published.
Forgive me if I take your remark wrongly but you seem rather cynical or exceedingly cautious in that you say it purports to be a few (15) million years old.
I can assure you that it is definitely a few million years old and the only slightly controversial aspect was/is that it is used as evidence for the presence of orchids way back in the Cretaceous (which ended some 65 million years ago). Plenty of orchid experts might doubt an extrapolation from about 15 million to over 65 million. On the other hand, most orchid experts are botanists and not palaeobotanists.

The evidence for the presence of orchids in the Cretaceous is highly probable but proof from your Tertiary fossil of a few million depends on the interpretation of more subtle data derived from the fossil which I d better not go into here or I ll be shot with the taxonomists.

The fact is that orchids are exceedingly rare as fossils. This isn t surprising as they are pretty fragile land plants and tend to decay when dead. (Dinosaurs, in contrast, left robust skeletons behind that are somewhat more resistant than the pollen on this bee s back!) This specimen was virtually unique in that the bee (like many other insects and spiders of the time) happened to get caught in tree resin. Although when we come across the stuff at present it is rather like unset epoxy resin-glue but given time it hardens into what we know as amber. This is much like fibre-glass resin but without the fibre-glass! Chemically, it is nearly indestructible unless it gets into a hot environment like closeness to a lava flow or something but Tertiary amber with insects is quite common (and often collectible for ornamental pseudo jewellery purposes. Geologically, the Tertiary is not that old

The bottom line is that this fossil endorses the belief that orchids go back probably to the early Cretaceous but what I was wondering was if there have been studies of orchid evolution by authors trying to concoct an orchid evolutionary tree. That would be tentative but I d like to see efforts based on present day opinions of their evolution.
There have been some interesting studies of their evolution based on gene sequencing; that is to say, closeness of species by similarity of their genetic composions. I won t expand on this unless you really wish, because it gets us into the dreaded area of what useless taxonomists do with their time . . apart from annoy orchid collectors by causing name changes!

I d happily dive deeper but I fear I m pushing my luck with many OT members who are getting rather fed up with science rather than growing skills. I suspect you and Geoff are more tolerant . . or else very polite!

Nice to talk to you again. I d like to wish you a happy New Year but I suspect we re in for a miserable recycled second-hand old one!
However, who knows, we may be able to celebrate another Christmas in (hopefully) a few days when the Post Office is
able to deliver my mislaid post.
Cheers for now
ps., you may or may not have seen this or similar; http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/08/070829-orchid-fossil.html
John

Dennis Read wrote Re: [OrchidTalk] I have to open my big mouth ... and then nemesis as b***** Stanley puts an oar in!

This picture appeared in an article about a year ago and purports to be a few million year old fossilisedbee carrying orchid pollen.
Regards

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Sulphur vaporisers
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 09:20

This rings a bell − way back it was a standard method ; my recollection (
which I would say is only a vague one) is that we were told that this was
now illegal under EU rules, and the materials would no longer be available ,
and the Company we bought from stopped supplying − I guess the fumigant came
in pre-shaped pellets to fit the machine (?). Maybe someone else has a
better memory than I do . But all that must be 20 years ago.

I would certainly be interested in any form of complete greenhouse
fumigation.

Without having bought any new plants ( so as to import fresh supplies of
pests) for several if not many months, I suddenly found a fresh crop of
scale insects on my cattleyas on Friday. I inspect them, individually − I
never water with a can or a lance , always lift, look at, dip, (or not) and
return ; and I do this every 10-14 days in the winter. They were not there
over Xmas, now they were there on at least a dozen plants. Somewhere or
other there were ones I had missed. There always will be, but a fumigation
would find them ( But would sulphur kill insect pests ? Or is it only
effective against fungal infections ? )

Memo − must look at Hotbox.

But tell us more Richard.

geoff.

Richard Baxter wrote re: [OrchidTalk] Sulphur vaporisers

Does anybody have experience of using a sulphur vaporiser to control pests
in their greenhouse?

I have seen Hotbox's product but not sure about orchid applications.

I use yellow sulphur very effectively on rot .

Any views?

Richard

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Worth the wait
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 13:25

Many years ago when I was very good at killing orchids I went to the BOC Congress at Bournmouth. Clutching my 'Golden Guide' I wandered around looking at the fabulous flowers. As I had just bought a house and was between contracts my budget was £2o. I was gazing enviously at an orchid growing in a small trough when a teenager arrived with an elder lady. Bouncing up and down he cried that he must have it . She bought it for him for £40. I stood looking bemused and the stall holder said
" they are well known and he always gets what he wnts"
The trader said the plant was Brassavola glauca. It is now known as Fhyncholaelia glauca and a photo is attached.. I bought a seedling a few years ago from Burnham's and this is its first flower. Well worth the wait.

For John. I use the word 'purports'for two reasons.
1. The fossil is not damaged and so analysis must be by some form of imagery.
2. As it was so many years ago how do we know that no other plant used this form of pollen
I now treat all new scientific facts with caution as most of the mediapopulation do not know the difference between fact, theory and hypothesis (or possibly fiction).
Regards

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Worth the wait
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:20

There is a remarkable amount of colour in the tepals here ; the ones I have
seen have always been cream or even greenish. Perhaps the flower is recently
opened, and has not yet attained its final size, shape ,colour ?

An interesting yarn about the Bournemouth Congress ; I remember it well , we
stayed at one of the 'official' hotels which we thought third rate , typical
of the old British resort hotels scraping a living without ever investing
money in modernisation, and wondering why everyone went abroad to stay in
spanking new hotels with a much higher standard of service and at half the
cost , etc etc.This is said, not with the intention to start an argument ,
but as a report of how I felt at the time , I can see the economic
difficulties , and all this was long before carbon footprints, global
warming etc . But it coloured my view of Bournemouth , and decided me that
I would steer clear of the place for ever and then I ended up after my
last move being a mere 7 or 8 miles away ; but even now I avoid going there
if I can. that's life.,

geoff

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: I spent the afternoon taking pictures...plus a few done in the past week.
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 18:00

530 I have a feeling that I showed this before under some different name ;
this is how I think it should be labelled .

531 Wendys Valentine , these red cattleyas are so difficult to render
correctly . To my eye it looks like uniform dark red velvet , but the camera
sees things I do not. Flowers about 3- 3 ½ inch size.

532 Cirrhopetalum ( which I know is probably a bulbophyllum, but I'm ready
for an argument) vaginatum. Flowers 1 to 1 ½ inch long.That's a 7 inch pan.

533 The Epidendrum pseudoepidendrum ( which makes me think it was once in
another genus , but not so. I have no explanation for the odd name ). The
best flowering I have achieved, or for that matter seen in UK. In South
America this is the norm ; here. They usually seem to produce a small bunch
of flowers, then later the old spike develops a bit further and produces
some more, and so on.

534Wine Delight; flowers a lot darker this year ; apparently this is not
unusual , the colour depends on the culture. Not sure if that makes this
good or bad !

535. One of my earliest species fall-in-love-with plants. Does make tall
canes !

536 His Buu Beauty ; see comments about Wendys Valentine for colour.

537 Still out of fashion, I think , complex paphs. But I have them, like
them, and hold on to them. One day they will be back in fashion again.

538 Paph malipoensis − whatever the file name says . Has taken ages to open
the flower , but then I expect it to last so long that it will need dusting
and one day I'll cut it off out of boredom.

539 A good flowering on my Sunray this year. If the present flowers last
until the new spike is all open, there will be 17 flowers. Good for a big
Vanda IMHO. The flowers not the largest of the Vandas in my collection , but
a good 4 and half inches when fully expanded , which takes more than a week
from first opening.

540 Stirling Tiger. This is a plant from Italy in about May tlast year ; in
aquaculture , prodicing the first spike of 8 flowers. I hope for better in
the future but these good-sized strong coloured flowers are a rfeal delight.

Geoff

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: john Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Worth the wait − even for 15 million years!
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 21:30

Hi Dennis,
1. Let me just sympathise with the widely held view in this forum that a change, such as, from Brassavola glauca to Fyncholaelia glauca is an (expletive) nuisance for all of us who aren t directly into taxonomy. But the taxonomists involved will have been sorting out an anomaly just as serious to scientific accuracy as collectors inconvenience. But my bit of your email concerned a less academic aspect of orchids. And so ;-

2. Fossils preserved in amber can be astonishingly well preserved chemically as well as in physical form/shape. Genetic analysis can be far more than mere imagery according to some. Against, are many who doubt that fragmented gene sequences purporting (!) to be from such ancient organisms (say in excess of 100,000,000 years) can really be accurate or reliable enough (your doubts about the bee s pollen) and the whole business of palaeo-gene sequences is very controversial. On the other hand, since we have been using plant (orchids) morphology for over 200 years with much success (notwithstanding some hostile views on taxonomists constant revisions of the grouping) I don t understand why you should doubt the validity of morphological evidence from fossil pollen when you would (presumably) accept it from living forms.

3. In other words, fossils have to be dealt with very carefully but certainly not simply disregarded as too old to be of any possible use or probably dated by dubious means. They are certainly not curiouos interesting only in passing! In my humble view, the bee and its pollen are good evidence (virtual proof) that bees were pollinating orchids identifiable to a group currently living (although not that species) as long ago as 15 million years. They didn t arrive on scene overnight and estimates from plants close to orchids (Asparagales) and other long exiting groups, while not proving the ancient origins of orchids would make their supposed absence suspiciously exceptional. Of course, strong suspicions of their Cretaceous presence isn t proof but there are, nonetheless, strong indications that they were there based on intelligent estimates of the genetics of current plant having needed time to evolve to their present genetic configuration. In other words, there are greater problems if their long history is denied that there are if it is strongly suspected.

Dating of rocks and fossils from rocks as young as 100 million to the present is a very exact science. Dating rocks beyond (say) 450 million is less exact but proportionately as good. Beyond that, we are into seriously distant dating dating. Once we get to 4000 million years we are into planetary and meteorite dating and even members of this forum might allow a few units of percent error there! Even so, dates of this distance are consistently interpreted from very sound evidence which is about as complicated as estimating your mpg!

Dennis, you might find the following couple of websites interesting n(and I haven t picked supportive ones but sensibly explanatory ones
A) http://books.google.co.uk/books?idi9ITMiiohVQC&pgPA138&lpgPA138&dqauthenticity+of++fossil+DNA&sourcebl&otsVVHnRxlNPX&sigUQ8ix8MSUxC5R5rF-M-zH7mymBY&hlen&ei3_gpTcL0BoqIhQfIkPikAg&saX&oibook_result&ctresult&resnum10&ved0CHoQ6AEwCQ vonepage&qauthenticity%20of%20%20fossil%20DNA&ffalse
B) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1688388/pdf/9149422.pdf

Enjoy!
John (see also my green annotations below)

Dennis Read wrote re: [OrchidTalk] Worth the wait

For John. I use the word 'purports'for two reasons.

1. The fossil is not damaged and so analysis or recognition? must be by some form of imagery − electron microscopy?.
2. As it was so many years ago how do we know that no other plant used this form of pollen (we don t, but how do we know that there are no other plants known now with orchid-like pollen other than orchids?)
I now treat all new scientific facts with caution as most of the mediapopulation do not know the difference between fact, theory and hypothesis or possibly fiction. (How true! The answer is to determine the source of information and don t rely on the media. Even reputable media − BBC, Guardian, Times are quite capable of getting it wrong. Don t throw the baby out with the bathwater though! John)
Regards

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: john Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Worth the wait − even for 15 million years! (correction)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:20

OOPS!
For in excess of 100,000,000 please read in excess of 100,000 (third line 2nd para1)
Such minor errors plague us all I guess,
John

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: john Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Worth the wait
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:20

No Geoff,
That s hibernation!
John

Geoff Hands wrote: RE: [OrchidTalk] Worth the wait

... But it coloured my view of Bournemouth , and decided me that I would steer clear of the place for ever and then I ended up after my last move being a mere 7 or 8 miles away ; but even now I avoid going there if I can. that s life.,

geoff

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Worth the wait
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:45

Yes Geoff, the flower was only 24hrs old. The tepals are loosing the reddish colour which follows the leaf colour. The flower is also 2cm larger. There is one more sheath forming so I may get another flower but I am waiting for next year .
regards

Geoff Hands wrote RE: [OrchidTalk] Worth the wait

There is a remarkable amount of colour in the tepals here ; the ones I have seen have always been cream or even greenish. Perhaps the flower is recently opened, and has not yet attained its final size, shape ,colour ?


-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: MIOS
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:00

There are two interesting articles in this months journal.
The first is about orchid stamps. I f my memory is correct a while ago there was a letter to this site about orchid stamps.
With this months lournal I was sent some mint orchid stamps issued in Belize(photo attached)..As I am not a stamp collectctor if the list member who is sends me their address I will send them on.
The second is about orchid names and is a well reasonsd article supporting scientific endeavour.
Both will soon be available on their web site www.miosjournal.org
This journal deserves support ar it publishes well written articles about the full spectrum of our hobby.
Regards

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Fowler
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Paph. micranthum
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:40

In my 26+ years of growing orchids I never grew Paphs.

I have just bought 3 single growths of micranthum with new growths.

Do not have a clue on how to grow it. Potted it in Medium orchid compost
with added perlite and sphag. Moss & grit.

Sitting in a large heated propagator. Only a few watts of heat.

Also bought a true Cyp. With 2 large white growths on it.

Thanking you in advace.

Peter F.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Fowler
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: FW: Paphiopedilim.
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:10

Thought you might be interested in these Paphs. Some of these are expensive, but they are rare plants.

Peter.

-----Forwarded message-----

Hello Peter,

Nice to hear from you. micranthum 0~4C no problem, amerniacum can tolerate -5C in short term.

SPECIES

UNIT PRICE

HARDY

1pcs

3pcs

>10pcs

C

F

Paphiopedilum armeniacum

6.00

14.40

ASK

BS or NBS,for each growth

-3

26.6

Paphiopedilum armeniacum var albino

50.00

2 years old seedling,leaf span 4cm

-3

26.6

Paphiopedilum armeniacum var albino

100.00

Near bloom size,leaf span about 10cm

-3

26.6

Paphiopedilum barbigerum*

15.00

36.00

ASK

BS,for 2 growths

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum bellatulum*

8.00

19.20

ASK

BS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum bellatulum var albino*

250.00

BS,for each growth, very round shape

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum callosum

15.00

36.00

BS,for each growth

5

41

Paphiopedilum charlesworthii

15.00

36.00

BS,for 2 growths

5

41

Paphiopedilum concolor

7.00

16.80

ASK

BS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum concolor v green albino *

350.00

BS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum delenatii

15.00

36.00

ASK

BS,for each growth

5

41

Paphiopedilum dianthum

12.00

28.80

ASK

BS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum dianthum var.albino*

750.00

BS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum emersonii

25.00

60.00

BS,for each growth, it is slow grower species, multiple growths will be easier,please ask me for big plant.

5

41

Paphiopedilum emersonii var.semi-albino*

900.00

BS,for each growth, pure white petals and lip, some small spot on lip

5

41

Paphiopedilum emersonii var.huonglanae

20.00

48.00

BS,for each growth, it is slow grower species, multiple growths will be easier,please ask me for big plant.

5

41

Paphiopedilum jackii

19.00

45.60

BS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum jackii v.albino*

150.00

NBS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum gratrixianum

12.00

28.80

BS,for each growth

5

41

Paphiopedilum hangianum

30.00

72.00

BS,for each growth, it is very slow grower species, multiple growths will be easier,please ask me for big plant

5

41

Paphiopedilum hangianum v.red flower*

1500.00

red mortolled on flower, very rare individual.

5

41

Paphiopedilum hangianum v.large flower*

2000.00

flower span is easy to reach 22cm. if you grow it well,maybe over 22cm.

5

41

Paphiopedilum helenae

19.00

45.60

BS,for 2 growths

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum helenae v.pygmy*

70.00

BS,2growths, small plants and short spike

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum helenae v.orange*

70.00

BS, 2growths,orange flower

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum helenae v.semi albino*

260.00

BS,2growths, near to pure light yellow flower, a little bit red on lip.

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum henryanum

12.00

28.80

ASK

BS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum henryanum selected individual*

500.00

BS, for 2growths,very nice individual, huge black spotted petal.

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum hirsutissimum

22.00

52.80

ASK

BS,for 2 growths

0

32

Paphiopedilum hirsutissimum var.albino*

250.00

BS,for each growth

0

32

Paphiopedilum hirsutissimum var.three lips*

950.00

BS,for 1 growth,with 3 lip-petals in one flower,same shape every year

0

32

Paphiopedilum hirsutissimum large flower individual-A*

1200.00

BS,for each growth,15cm flower span, very round shape, heavy flower petal

0

32

Paphiopedilum hirsutissimum large flower individual-B*

200.00

BS,for 2 growth,15cm flower span

0

32

Paphiopedilum malipoense

15.00

36.00

ASK

BS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum malipoense var.albino*

4200.00

BS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum malipoense var.hiepii

25.00

60.00

BS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum micranthum

6.00

14.40

ASK

BS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum micranthum var.semi-albino*

450.00

BS,for each growth, albino but some spot on flower

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum micranthum var.albino*

950.00

leaf span about 5~7cm,for each growth, really albino

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum micranthum var.albino*

1500.00

leaf span about 10~12cm,for each growth, really albino

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum micranthum v eburneum*

sold out

BS,white-yellow flower, rare variety, tolerate warm climate

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum micranthum v red*

80.00

BS,round red flower

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum micranthum v deep red*

sold out

BS,round, very deep red flower

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum purpuratum

12.00

28.80

ASK

BS,for each growth

0

32

Paphiopedilum rhizomatosum

14.00

33.60

ASK

BS,for each growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum tigrinum*

110.00

264.00

BS,for 2 growth, rare species, hard to propagated in flask.

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum tigrinum select individual*

200.00

BS,for 1 growth,thick marbled

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum tigrinum v.albino*

5200.00

BS, pure green crystal flower

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum tranlienianum

18.00

43.20

ASK

BS,for 2 growths

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum vietnamense*

200.00

individual growth from wild collected plant.

Paphiopedilum villosum

12.00

28.80

BS,for 2 growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum villosum v.annamens

17.00

40.80

BS,for 2 growth

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum wardii

8.00

19.20

ASK

BS,for each growths

3

37.4

Paphiopedilum wardii var.albino*

3500.00

BS,for each growths

3

37.4

· Paphiopedilim.


23:28


Best Regards
Yijia Wang


I have bought a Paph. from eBay from you. What other Paphs. do you have ,please. I have micranthum from you. what is lowest temperature it grows at ,please.

I like the Pleiones I have bought from you.

Peter Fowler, UK


-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Paph. micranthum
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:20

I'm going to sit back and wait..

geoff

Peter Fowler wrote re: [OrchidTalk] Paph. micranthum

In my 26+ years of growing orchids I never grew Paphs.

I have just bought 3 single growths of micranthum with new growths.

Do not have a clue on how to grow it. Potted it in Medium orchid compost
with added perlite and sphag. Moss & grit.

Sitting in a large heated propagator. Only a few watts of heat.

Also bought a true Cyp. With 2 large white growths on it.

Thanking you in advace.

Peter F.

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From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] FW: Paphiopedilim.
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:25

What a very interesting list. However, no greenhouse is indefinitely expansible, and I seriously need to clear a square meter or three .so I have made a resolution not to buy any more orchids ( apart from those being brought to London or Peterborough for me, already ordered) until I have had a successful clearance sale..

In short, get thee behind me .

Geoff

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From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] FW: Paphiopedilim.
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:25

BTW not that I am interested , of course , . Those prices are US$ ? and charge for carriage ? Or is that delivered to a UK show ?

Geoff

Peter Fowler wrote re: [OrchidTalk] FW: Paphiopedilim.

Thought you might be interested in these Paphs. Some of these are expensive, but they are rare plants.

Peter.

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From:
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] FW: Paphiopedilim.
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 07:50

Hi!

I m curious about for example

Paphiopedilum armeniacum var
albino

50.00

2 years old seedling,leaf span 4cm

Isn t albinos a
genetic "defect"? In that case can you trust that a seed plant from an
albino really will be an albino until you've seen in in bloom?

/Mats
Linde

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From: john Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] FW: Paphiopedilim.
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 21:25

Forgive me but I m not sure how to address you informally! Is it Mats or Linde?
However,
Hello,
Since nobody seems to have responded to your query about albinism (none has come into my inbox) my I offer the suggestion that the trait will not always appear, even if a parent has the gene. If the gene is recessive in the organism in question (orchid), both parental plants will need to carry it. I offer this information, not as an expert, but from a little out-dated general biological knowledge. I suggest you look up genes+ albinism + recessive + dominant and see what turns up.

Another point worth raising is that hybrids don t necessarily breed true and because each hybrid parent is already a genetic mixture, a cross between two hybrids that seem the same will almost certainly be genetically different. This is the reason why so many hybrids aren t propagated by seed. Another problem is that there may be genes linked with albinism that cause problems as well.
It is also worth recalling that a white flower may not carry a gene for whiteness but rather no genes for colour! (white isn t a colour)

No doubt someone will join in the explanation, probably correct me and help you incidentally. (hopefully someone with experience in hybridising orchids).

As to albinism being a defect , I suspect that depends on whether or not you are trying to achieve it! In the natural world is is often a disadvantage with the trait and it could then, presumably, be so defined. It depends on whether or not you define a defect in the plant s terms or the breeder s terms.
John (retreats to a safe distance as the real experts rush in!)

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From:
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] FW: Paphiopedilim.
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 09:20

I guess I used the word "defect" a bit sloppy, but what I meant is a
deviation from "the normal" gene sequence in a species.

What John
wrote confirms what I suspected, a plant sold as a seed albino plant
could very well be a normal coloured plant even if both the parents are
albinos.

I might be that I'm totally wrong, I found the quote below on
the net.

At
http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/mol-evol/1995-November/003768.html mary
kuhner genetics.washington.edu [1] wrote

"A recessive gene is very
frequently one that produces no gene product,
or a gene product that
does not do anything: the gene is broken.
Whether a broken gene appears
recessive or not depends on whether a
working copy is able to provide
enough of the gene product. In many
cases it can. "

"A good example
to think about is albinism. Albinism is recessive
because if any gene
making melanin is working, there will be melanin and
the person will be
at least somewhat brown. The "albino gene" is not a
gene that makes you
an albino, it is a gene that does nothing, and if
that's all you have
you will lack melanin and be an albino."

I guess it's not melanin in
orchids, but if the same reasoning about broken genes is true for
orchids, it makes sense that albinoism is uncommon amoung orchids. In
the natural habit most albinos will mate with a normal plant with a
functioning gene and all seedplants will look normal. But if yoy have
two albinos and let them mate, the result will always be an albino plant
with two broken genes, or?
Normally, I suppose, albinoism is the result
of a failed DNA copying in a few of the seed plants from the mating
between two "normal" plants.
Am I totally wrong on this? How is it in
orchids with partly white flowers, e.g. Phalaenopsis, do they have a
gene that says that they should be partly white or is it just a result
of genes that didn't manage to colour all of the flower? If they have a
gene that says that part of the flower should be white, it could also be
that gene running berserk and make all of the flower white in an
albino.

I guess I'm more confused than ever, what John wrote about
hybrids are definitily true.
And what is "Paphiopedilum emersonii
var.semi-albino* in that case? A plant with a partly broken gene?
Thanks
John, anyone with more input on the subject.?
Sorry about the strange
layout of my mail, but my mail editor refused to
cooperate.
/Mats

Links:
------
[1]
http://iubio.bio.indiana.edu/biomail/listinfo/mol-evol

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From: john Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] FW: Paphiopedilim.
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:55

Hi Mats,
I suspect this is a fine advertisement for 'the blind leading the blind”! I avoided reference to humans or animals simply because albinism
is often thought of as 'white” and nobody is white in the sense of the real meaning of whiteness. I am often cynically amused by the whole racial prejudice and
derogatory use of ‘coloured’ v ‘white’ in this context since black is an absence of colour (why then ‘coloureds’ ) and most ‘whites’ are various shades of the colour pink!
However, the absence of colour in racial blackness is certainly nothing to do with albinism while those of us that boast whiteness (if we do!) are seldom very white!
This , of course, ignores the typically prejudicial use by ‘whites’ who spend so much of their time trying to achieve ever greater degrees of brownness!
Albinism in humans (I think) is more to do with eye pigments (can anyone confirm?) where it can be a problem along with other sensitivities to light.

In the case of albino components of an orchid, I presume that a cluster of genes working on one ‘component’ of a flower could be different from the ones
working on another part of a flower (can someone out there confirm or correct this?)

I have to say that I am surprised that an orchid seed would be sold as ‘albino’. The fact that an orchid (flower) is white may not even be a case of genetic
albinism so much as the word ‘albino’ having been selected to indicate whiteness in more emphatic marketable sense.

Since writing this email so far, I have visited a friend who specialises in Masdevallias. He informs me that in many hybrids, whiteness (rather than albinism)
is very common and coloured flowers less so. He was also surprised that seeds were available (how do you cultivate them?). Are the plants formally registered
with the wod albino as a nomenclatural component or are they simply described as albino forms?

I am drifting more towards the probability that your plants are not albino but simply white.

Interesting to talk and contemplate and although I haven’t really answered your original query, I think that the conversation might have taught us both quite a lot.
I assume that not too many experts have joined in yet? I imagined an avalanche of them all ready to shoot me down!

Cheers and best wishes. If you learn more let us (all?) know.
John

ps; your formatting problem seems to have been emailed to me if I use the reply facility. I have, therefore, used ‘returns’ to keep my sentences in this county!

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