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2009 Archived Messages


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MONTHDATEDATEDATEDATEMONTHDATEDATEDATEDATE
January 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31 February 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-28
March 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31 April 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-30
May 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31 June 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-30
July 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31 August 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31
September 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-30 October 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31
November 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-30 December 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31

June 1—7

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Orchid evolution and the death of the dinosaurs....
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:50

Doing a bit of research into Cattleyas, I came across the following...

"The last glaciation ended about 1200 years ago, where the Amazon was at
least 5 deg.C cooler."

I'm sure that a mistake has crept in here, maybe in translation ( the link
to read it for yourself, by the way, is
http://www.delfinadearaujo.com/woc/15woc/part2.htm ) .

I know nothing about glaciation in the southern hemisphere.as compared to my
knowledge of what happened in our own part of the world (e.g. my younger
years, climbing Scottish mountains and seeing glacially formed grooves on
the Black Cuillin...). I suppose 1200 should be 12000 ?

It is my understanding that South America and North America were separated
until about 7000 years ago, but I had thought that falling sea-levels , as
the water got locked up in the polar ice-sheets, led to the land bridge. But
if the world was then warming up , that must be wrong, and the connection is
more due to tectonic movement especially uplifting of the land. and falling.

How far up South America did the glaciers reach in the last ice age I wonder
?

But,, reading further down the same paragraph from which I quote, − "the
vegetation was mainly Podocarpus conifer forests in the upper Amazon, and
savannahs and deserts in the lower Amazon..."

And all our cattleyas have evolved/moved into/ or what − in that
relatively short space of time ( in a Darwinian sense anyway)...?

I am amazed .

Any comments, reference to this subject of orchid evolution, and the
geological/climatic history of South America will be appreciated.

Geoff

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Coelogyne Unchained Melody
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:00

Two good sized pieces from my splitting up a plant which was in a 15 inch
pan, going for the asking.

Just send me your mail address.

Geoff

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bruyninckx
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Open Nursery Weekend ~ Opendeurweekend ~ Weekend Portes Ouvertes
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:30

Dear Orchid Friends,

We kindly invite you to come to our annual open nursery weekend on Saturday
June 6th and Sunday June 7th from 10 am til 6 pm.
As always there is a drink on the house for every visitor.

The weekend will be marked by two major events: first of all we look back
upon 30 years of professional orchid growing and secondly we look to the
future with the launch of our new orchid fertilizer: "Akerne's RAIN MIX".
This fertilizer has been successfully tested by us and a selected group of
hobby orchid growers with spectacular results for a period of over two
years.
Testimony to this success are the various prizes won by orchids grown with
this fertilizer in both national and international shows.

Happy orchid growing,

Diane, Dirk and Kenneth.

Kenneth Bruyninckx

Akerne Orchids

Laarsebeekdreef 4, B-2900 Schoten, Belgium

tel. +32 (0)3 651 40 36 fax +32 (0)3 653 06 76

kenneth@akerne-orchids.com

www.akerne-orchids.com

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Coelogyne cristata going for the postage...
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 19:25

I expect everyone has this plant; but maybe you know a beginner who is
building a collection who hasn't ?

I have just split up my over-large C. Cristata ; I've made three 10 inch
pans or baskets, and still have a mountain left over, I have separated the
20 + best pieces − all three or more bulbs with one or more growths. I'll
send them to anyone − three or four such growths per person ? just give me
an address. I ask the cost of the jiffy bag and postage on it.

As a matter of interest , I was disappointed in the flowering this year-
maybe it had forty spikes ( imperfect memory...) , but from a plant well
over the edges of an 18 inch (?) pan , maybe 3 feet across... not what I
wanted.

I found that the longest pieces hanging over the edge started with a bulb
say 3 inches by one inch, and getting progressively smaller, until the last
bulb was no bigger than a (shelled) brazil nut. I shall not let the plant
get to that state again. Incidentally I threw away all those pieces − the
ones on offer have much bigger bulbs although not as big as my biggest ; but
still flowering size I think.

It won't go on the compost heap − these hard bulbs never seem to rot. So
what is left unasked for in a couple of weeks, will go to the Council Tip.

Geoff

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Orchid Review/Cites
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 09:00

Geof, I liked and understood your letter concerning cites in the Orchid Review. Unfortunately I could not understand the justification reply by the Kew Official. I guess the best way is come home via Germany or do as many traders now do − use a German company.
Regards

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gordon Walker
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Coelogyne cristata going for the postage...
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:00

Geoff,
If you still have a piece available I can send on the postage by adding to the postage of the first parcel when it arrives..
Regards,
Gordon.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Orchid Review/Cites
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:10

The problem then − coming home via Germany − is that you will have had to
apply for your (import) CITES permit from the German authorities − whoever
they may be... rather too difficult for me, I am afraid !

Geoff

Dennis Read wrote re: [OrchidTalk] Orchid Review/Cites

> Geof, I liked and understood your letter concerning cites in the Orchid
> Review. Unfortunately I could not understand the justification reply by the
> Kew Official. I guess the best way is come home via Germany or do as many
> traders now do − use a German company.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: edeckert@triad.rr.com
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Coelogyne cristata going for the postage...
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 17:20

Hello Geoff,

I'm in the USA, but I believe that you are in the UK. If so, what are the
chances of any of the C. cristada being sent across the pond? I don't know
if agricultural import rules would prevent it, or if postage would be
prohibitive.

Best regards,

Ed − in USA

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: nathaniel green
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Coelogyne cristata going for the postage...
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 07:15

Geoff,

If there any piece left then i will happily send cash/cheque.

Nat

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Nearly on top of things...
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:40

Hi all,

Sorry if I am a bit slow sending things out, but I have a really,
really good excuse...

The reason for the shutdown earlier in the week was because I was
away from the computer. The family treated Alan and me to a little
holiday in Cornwall for our Silver Wedding. Based near Bodmin, and I
can thoroughly recommend the hotel − Trehellas House.

Unfortunately whilst in Liskeard Alan tumbled down some steep steps
and smashed his shoulder. Two/three ribs, clavicle and scapula. We
are home now, but dealing with things such as a lengthy hospital
appointment today and other delights takes more hours out of the day
than I would have imagined. No doubt those of you who have had
similar experiences will know all about that! Anyway, keep the
messages coming as it's good distraction therapy.

--

Tricia

You can't have everything, where would you put it?

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gordon Walker
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: masdevallia Linda
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:55

Can anyone throw any light on a Masdevallia hybrid called linda?
Gordon.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Orchid evolution and the death of the dinosaurs....
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 17:05

Hi Geoff,

Just caught your queries on S.American immediately-post-glacial temperatures;-
I havn't read the article you cite but speaking off the top of my head (I'll need to check up to see if that's the only place from which my voice emanates!) but, as a geologist it doesn't sound very improbable for those temperatures.

Remember, that for the last 1500 years, major lateral continental movements have not been great enough to seriously distort the map and neither have isostatic changes in the low latitudes (isostasy − 'flotation' of low density continents on high density underlying mantle). However,eustatic changes (changes in sea level caused by variation in the volume of water in oceans) have, as you say, been significant during and after the glaciation and can still be historically significant as continents are unloaded of their glacial ice (one centimetre in 10 years I think is about the rate for N. Scandinavia as I type!.

As for land bridges between N and S America, it doesn't require great eustatic fluctuations to separate or connect the two and there is always an island hopping plausibility. Also, I wouln't imagine much of a problem for small-seeded plants to cross a few tens of miles of ocean or even be carried (say) a hundred miles.

When the N polar latitudes and the S Polar latitudes are glaciated the effect is to push temperate regions to lower latitudes. However, there are additional variables such as altitude (look at the locations of Andean glaciers now!). Also, climate is not (as I'm sure you know) entirely a glaciation-latitude thing. Look at the influence of the Atlantic current we all learned as the N.Atlantic Drift which is causing so much concern now in this time of glabal warming (global warming might not make us all warmer!).

Another point; some greenhouse owners (you Geoff?) might know the tolerance in terms of artificial climate variation for cattleyas that interest you. Yet another relevant point is the fact that many tropical plants were transported to the Canary Islands by the Spanish colonisers for 'acclimatisation' before being brought into Europe for cultivation in much cooler climates. Given time, they could, apparently, get used to cooler climes. As growers, we try to re-create ideal growing conditions yet many, if not all, plants have to cope with the best they can get in competition with others who might pinch their ideal conditions and force them to marginal ones.

Another point to note is that Darwinian evolution has no rigid time rate. Organisms that reproduce many times a day (bacteria, some fungi etc) are capable of evolving very fast by the standards of (say) humans or other mammals that can only manage once a year or so.

I'll do a bit of checking up on the glacial and post-glacial connections/isolations but there is one other aspect that might be worth a mention and a discussion;

I read somewhere in an otherwise reputable journal that in these days of glabal warming, the tropics are expanding. Think about that! The tropics are defined (in my book!) by the positions of latitudes 23.5 S and N. Unless Earth tilts, these are fixed latitudes receiving the last gasp of vertical solar radiation at some time. North of 23.5N and south of 23.5S there is never vertical radiation and so there can be no expansion of the tropics unless Earth tilts more. Of course, what the writer must have meant is that conditions we have been associating with tropical regions are getting more widespread.

What I find so fascinating about orchid evolution is the probability that they have a far longer ancestry than was imagined before gene sequencing. I have not kept up-to-date but I believe that there is evidence that they have at latest, an early Cretaceous origin and possibly a late Jurassic one. It is in this long history connection that I find CAM (Crassulacean Acid metabolism) orchids so interesting. Maybe someone out there can suggest why CAM physiology (an adaptation enabling transpiration through open stomata to occur in the cool of night when CO2 is stored in readiness for photosynthesis in the day. Clever; but why did so many orchids (something like 30-50% of some groups) acquire this physiological trick unless they had to survive a very different climatic regime than now way back in their history? Or are their other reasons for CAM physiology?

Obviously, whether we're maeasuring in a few thousand years or 100 million, there is some interesting orchid evolution out there. What a pity we've almost no fossils and that their seeds are so damned tiny.

Sorry, I'm rambling! But it is a most interesting topic Geoff. Thanks for raising it. Between us all in theis forum, we might get somewhere (Other than to an institution for the botanically deranged).

John.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Nearly on top of things...
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:40

I am so sorry to hear of your troubles Tricia − we will all tread softly -
and hope for reports of improvements.

But I don't think that your recommendation of the hotel will outweigh the
other vibes about it !

Geoff

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Orchid evolution and the death of the dinosaurs....
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 20:00

Aha... I did press the right buttons !

Can you give me any references to sources listing which orchid groups do use
CAM ? ( How I wish OU would do a course which covers what interests me ! )

As I understand the land-bridge thing from Dressler's writings, the flora
just moved in from both sides, which is why Nicaragua, Costa Rica, & Panama,
have a mixture of North and South American species, as well as their
endemics, which must have all evolved in that 7000 years... or ( it now
occurs to me) moved into the region and then become extinct in the area
where they originated. With changing climate, that makes sense.

Adaption to changing climate ? Of course − as Charlie Darwin told the plants
etc − adapt or die... And we make our orchids adapt too. Who grew phallys 50
years ago ? We all knew they needed 70 deg F and nothing less...

But I'm still amazed at the idea that the Brazilian Rain-forest wasn't there
such a short time ago ( in geological terms) and yet has such a complex and
rich eco-system. And I just can't see how it moved in from
Patagonia/Argentine, or from the Caribbean.

It must all happen so much quicker than I can get my head round.

Anyone got a spare time machine, and I'll go and see for myself ?

Look forward to more.

Geoff

John W Stanley wrote Re: [OrchidTalk] Orchid evolution and the death of the
dinosaurs....

> Hi Geoff,

> Just caught your queries on S.American immediately-post-glacial
> temperatures;-

> I havn't read the article you cite but speaking off the top of my head (I'll
> need to check up to see if that's the only place from which my voice
> emanates!) but, as a geologist it doesn't sound very improbable for those
> temperatures...

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Coelogyne cristata going for the postage...
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 20:00

Let me have an address and I'll see what I can do when I am back home.

geoff

nathaniel green wrote RE: [OrchidTalk] Coelogyne cristata going for the postage...

> Geoff,

> If there any piece left then i will happily send cash/cheque.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Nearly on top of things...
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 17:15

On 05 Jun, geoff hands wrote:
> I am so sorry to hear of your troubles Tricia − we will all tread
> softly − and hope for reports of improvements.

> But I don't think that your recommendation of the hotel will
> outweigh the other vibes about it !

The hotel was great − miles away from the dreaded steps. Just don't
go to Liskeard, or at least don't try to navigate steep steps *with
no handrail* to get to a ticket machine in the car park...

At least Alan is relatively mobile − and finding out how many things
need two hands!

--

Tricia

Always remember you're unique... Just like everyone else.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Orchid evolution and the death of the dinosaurs....
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:25

Hi Geoff,
Tatton Orchid Show today and a neighbours Koi-pond we're holiday-minding has sprung a leak. As you might guess, louging in a conservatory looking up things in my books (when i can find the right one!) hasn't been hig on Margaret's agenda.

However,I did manage to asceratin the approximate correctness of the sea level changes although the diagram was scaled in millions of years and so interpolation to a thousand or two is diff. However, fluctuation below present sea levels of up to -or should I say down to about 200 metres have been several at about the right time.

I'll need to check accuartely for genera of CAM orchids other that Cattleyas but I know they're on the web. I tend to find interesting relevant and authoritative articles, then print 'em off. Years later I discover I've lost the print-offs and need to search again. (How does one know when, as well as losing books, discs and hard copy, one has lost one's marbles?)

Will keep at it − CAM plants that is.

Must read the article you discovered now the pond is not declining in level like the oceans once were.

I'll be back (Oh yes, and I still owe you a piccy of UK Karst as I recall.

And while I'm at it; didn't you once have a hydrofogger and didn't it fail? If you've still got it, throw away Simply C's instructions and I'll tell yiou what stopped ours!
Cheers
John

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: JIM MATEOSKY
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: cymbidiums − spots on leaves fungus or virus?
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 12:50

Orchid gurus,

I kind of think these spots are fungus related, any ideas? My question is more about cymbidium mosaic virus, on the internet there is lots of fotos but I have not seen anything definitive. Anyone know of any site that has some definitive fotos of the mosaicvirus?

Jim

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lynda Coles
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] cymbidiums − spots on leaves fungus or virus?
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 20:15

Hello Jim,

If you are not sure, try one of the test kits that will let you know if your plant has mosaic virus or not. They are inexpensive...just a few dollars/pounds each and easy to use I think.
Type ...agdia immunostrip.....into your browser....or CymMV test....or plant virus test kit...there are many to choose from.

regards,
Lynda

JIM MATEOSKY wrote [OrchidTalk] cymbidiums − spots on leaves fungus or virus?

> orchid gurus,

> I kind of think these spots are fungus related, any ideas? My
> question is more about cymbidium mosaic virus, on the internet
> there is lots of fotos but I have not seen anything definitive.
> Anyone know of any site that has some definitive fotos of the
> mosaicvirus?

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Orchid evolution and the death of the dinosaurs....and CAM Orchids
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 22:50

Hi Geoff,

I just did a quick trawl thro' CAM orchid refs. The three last ones are probably the most authoritative and close to primary sources whereas the first ones (down to the Wiipedia one) are distillations from others' work (according to my last few K of memory)

I'm not a plant physiologist and confess that I hang on to this stuff by my finger nails but I find the whole business of CAM plants fascinating and, in the orchid growers' world, usually ignored of unknown.

I don't know how much of a turn off a general Orchid Talk discussion might be but anyone bored to death can ignore the thread! Come to think of it, if they're bored to death they'll ignore everything!

Open a bottle and try the following. Let me know what you think.

http://www2.mcdaniel.edu/Biology/botf99/photodark/cam.htm

http://wc.pima.edu/~bfiero/tucsonecology/plants/plants_photosynthesis.htm

http://www.geocities.com/~marylois/archiv14.html

http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/indoor/handbooks/bestorchids/1.htmlhttp://www.geneticarchaeology.com/Research/Professor_Probing_The_Evolution_Of_Tropical_Orchids.asp

http://www.ag.unr.edu/cushman/johnc3.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAM_photosynthesis The_benefits_of_CAM

http://www.2007.botanyconference.org/engine/search/index.php?funcdetail&aid1952

http://www.ag.unr.edu/NAES/Research_Details.aspx?GrantID444

http://www.co2science.org/subject/c/summaries/camplants.php

Cheers for now

John

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: John J. Rupp
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Coelogyne cristata going for the postage...
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 23:40

Geoff,

I have been trying to imagine what this C. cristata looked like before
you split it. Any chance you took a picture, and if so, could post it?
As I am considering splitting and re-potting mine, I would find it
useful if you could take a picture of your recently re-potted divisions
and post it for us.

John R

geoff hands wrote:
> I expect everyone has this plant; but maybe you know a beginner who is
> building a collection who hasn't ?
>
>
>
> I have just split up my over-large C. Cristata ; I've made three 10 inch
> pans or baskets, and still have a mountain left over, I have separated the
> 20 + best pieces − all three or more bulbs with one or more growths. I'll
> send them to anyone − three or four such growths per person ? just give me
> an address. I ask the cost of the jiffy bag and postage on it.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: sheila bicknell
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] cymbidiums − spots on leaves fungus or virus?
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 23:50

Jim, I think it looks more like red spider damage, Sheila

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