July 2008 mailing list messages

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From: jns tropic
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008

From: David Martin
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008

Thanks to David and 'Tropic' for the comical answers. They did have me laughing out aloud.

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008

Taking a leaf from Vacherot & LeCoufles book, how about "Oncidium sans
famille" ?

From: John J. Rupp
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008

I really think it is a Colmanara Wildcat variety. I have one blooming
that is very close to yours labeled Colmanara Wildcat 'NN'.

Another which looks even closer to yours is pictured on the Santa
Barbara Orchid Estates website at
http://www.sborchid.com/plantdisplay.php?ocodeCBO1682B and is called
Colmanara Wildcat 'Everlastinng'.

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: Label.
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008

On 22 Jul, in article ,
Roger Grier wrote:
> Thanks to David and 'Tropic' for the comical answers. They did
> have me laughing out aloud.

Not being 'funny', Rocky, but why exactly do you need a name? We have
been through all this business of casually labelling plants with
names we think might be correct but can't guarantee before. At least
one person disapproved so strongly of this 'perpetuation of
inaccuracy' that she left the group. A bit of an over-reaction in my
opinion but I could see her point.

As John R** says, it looks like Colmanara Wildcat, so why not follow
John S**'s suggestion of last November and label it 'cf Colmanara
Wildcat' meaning, "I think this plant is Colmanara Wildcat but I
can't be absolutely certain" then you can put it on the Show Table
for judging safe in the knowledge that no one could accuse you of
mis-labelling :-)

From: David Martin
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008

Rocky,
Further to my cryptic response. Call it what you like, half the Dutch growers no longer bother to register plants with the RHS,. There were a couple of articles in Orchid review about this subject, one written by Henry Oakeley, and one by an RHS person dealing with registration. I have a big white Phal that I called Spitzbergen, it's been on the OSGB stand at the RHS shows without any problem. Henry Oakeley told us to give plants a name when putting them on display as "Phalaenopsis" hybrid loses marks.
David

From: Nathaniel Green
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Pleurothallis cogniauxiana
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008

I was wondering if anyone grows Pleurothallis cogniauxiana as I have just
lost the last leaf and was wondering if this was it or is there hope. As I
was not sure if it had a rest period and lost its leaves, as the five that I
started with not one turned brown or yellow, they just dropped off. The only
information I have is it wants full shade and needs misting, in a cool to
intermediate temp range, normally that would be enough but this one is
puzzling me, as I can not work out why all its leaves have dropped off. If
any one can help I would be much appreciated.

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008

Hi Rocky,
I often get accused of pedantry but are you sure you need to write the label?
I imagine you wish to write an honest label but if you don't really know what a plant is then there is no point in creating the impression that you do. We have been around the circuit of "cf" before and to offer an ID as "cf Orchis bloggsii" is far more useful and honest to the reader than the apparent certainty of Orchis bloggsii. There is a whiff here of the apparent authority of the label rather than the usefulness of it.

Very often, in this forum, a writer will offer an opinion on the possible, probable or near certain ID of a specimen but all this does is suggest where you might look or provide a plausible possibility but not a definitive ID (in my opinion!).

Hybrids are notoriously difficult to identify unless you really know what the parents were and are certain that they were accurately identified before the cross was made. If a plant has been parted from its original label, the only solution is to admit it with the 'cf' designation.

Coupled with commercial aspects of saleable hybrids, secrecy, and skills of identifying vs skills of hybridising, we have to trust a labeller and assume s/he is honest and competent. I know the member we lost from this forum, largely because (I believe) of the perceived passion for labelling at all costs rather than being scrupulously honest about an uncertainty.

After all, we grow plants out of a botanical interest or an aesthetic pleasure . . or both. Unless the botany is your prime passion then it doesn't matter if the label is vaguer than you might like. If scientific botany (is there any other sort?) is your main interest then an unlabelled plant is totally valueless and a label of opinion is even worse.

As for the suggestion "use a white one" I could argue the case for a zinc one but that'd take us into another set of volumes!
However, I used to use emulsion paint with carbon ink (Indian ink) written onto it. I have labels on abandoned bits of rock that have been weathered in the garden for over 20 years − some buried! − and they are still readable. Acrylic white is ideal as a base for the ink and could be painted on a plastic or ceramic pot. Comments?
Cheers
John

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Why I need a name.
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008

You ask, why do I need a name. First though let me just say this.....Colmanara Wildcat is the name that I have been given and made a label for the dark red flower.

Four images show what a super plant it is. The flower spike is thirty three inches tall, with a spread of eleven inches. As our friend from Florida says, [Tropic as I call him] write on the label 'Not for Sale', as it is a plant worth keeping.

The name does escape me, but I know that this type of flower, yellow/dark brown is a very much produced plant by the big growers.

So, I just want someone to put us all on the correct track so that we can look it up on the Internet.

Whoever the lady was that left our 'Club ', well, maybe if she is still lurking out there, she may like to E-mail me direct or via the Club to air her views, then, in good old 'ampshire New Forest style, I will entice her back.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: I have a name!!!
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008

"I have a name". After having a good look on the Internet, I can now write a name on a label.

It sure looks as if it is Colmanara 'Jungle Monarch', but as to one of the many other names, I will give that a miss.

Ah !!!! But that's not the end of it.....[ I hear moans and groans ] ha, ha, being an observant chappie when I want to be, I have noticed that my 'Jungle Monarch' has tiny pinkish dots at the top of the yellow part of the lip, and that the anther cap on mine is dark red. The anther cap on other photos shows the cap as white.....food for thought???

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008

I shall have to write a new label in the morning.....well done mate and thanks so very much. As I have said the anther cap did not agree with me, but the photos/images of many Colmanara Wildcat 'Everlasting' that I have looked at are a dead ringer for my plant.

Thanks again John, but, oh, those Colmanara Wildcat's are just so very different.

> I really think it is a Colmanara Wildcat variety. I have one
> blooming that is very close to yours labeled Colmanara Wildcat
> 'NN'.

From: Esther Koh
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Emailing: Schoenorchis fragrans (2), Schoenorchis fragrans
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008

It does look rather like my Schoenorchis. I guess that explains why I could not detect any fragrance from its flowers.

David Martin wrote Re: [OrchidTalk] Emailing: Schoenorchis fragrans (2), Schoenorchis fragrans

> Hello Esther
> It looks as if your orchid is Schoenorchis pachycris, try
> looking at www.orchidspecies.com/schoenorchis.htm
> Regards
> David

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008

You may know why I was so persistent, as I knew that I had seen the flower somewhere before. Later I will have a damned good read on the parentage of Colmanara Wildcats Jungle Monarch types, and then Colmanara Wildcat 'Everlasting'.

David, I read with great interest what Henry Oakley said about plants that were labelled QUITE TRUTHFULLY as Phalaenopsis hybrid, and that they would loose marks. The 'Retired Horticultural Sloth's [aka RHS] should try marking the plant and not the label which is inscribed with true words. And it's no good anyone having a go at me for what I have written because it will never alter my opinion.

From: Alan Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Pleurothallis cogniauxiana
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008

Hi!
I have no direct experience of this particular pleurothallis but I do grow
quite a bunch of pleurothallids and their associates and my experience is
that if leaves drop off for no apparent reason it is generally because the
plants are too warm. For example,leaf drop is quite common in masdevallias
if they are repotted in anything but the coolest of conditions.
I hope this may help if you try again.

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk]names and labels
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008

There are lots of reasons why plants are not labelled or named or registered
by commercial growers, and railing against the practice is as useful as
banging your head against a brick wall − it won't change a thing.

The fact is that historically, before the invention of meristem production
in 1964 and its widespread adoption towards the end of the 20th century,
orchids were sold only to orchid growers − hobbyists , even if some
collections were the size of botanic garden collections.

And hybrids were sold by the name on the label as unflowered seedlings (
mostly). Anything good existed only as a single plant , and if you owned it,
you kept it for breeding, and the letters AM or FCC ( etc) were the
certificate of how good it was.

But the fact that seedlings were offered for sale as e.g. Cym Buddha FCC/RHS
crossed with Cym Confucius HCC/AOS was some kind of hope that the offspring
would be good, at any rate better than probable if the seedling came from
"lesser" parents . To get that award ( which was said to add at least one
zero to the price of the plant, if not two ! ) you had to register. No
registration, no award. As simple as that.

In the system, when you have registered, your hybrid has the unique name -
lets call it Cym Karl Marx . Your plant which won the award is Cym Karl Marx
FCC/RHS- and then you must add a cultivar name to indicate your particular
plant − e.g. Cym. Karl Marx "Red Robbo" FCC/RHS. Others want a bit, and you
tell them it's not big enough to divide yet, but you have some siblings,
unflowered, which may be just as good, and you sell them a plant of Karl
Marx − but not of Karl Marx "Red Robbo" . Maybe theirs is goos, and gets
awarded, and they give it their own cultivar name − so it becomes say Cy
Karl Marx "Joe Stalin" AM/RHS.

Nowadays, you get these plants as meristems , and everyone can have a bit .
But hold on ,Karl Marx was awarded in 1904 ! ( as a matter of interest ,
Paph Maudiae "Magnificum" FCC was awarded in 1904, and if it could be
meristemmed ( it can't − paph's won 't − which is why they are so expensive
)it would still be mass produced today. V. Cambria "Plush" FCC − awarded
1929 I think , still being meristemmed and sold !

But plant breeding has moved on. Been there, got that, lost the tee shirt...
lets breed something new. But why should I tell my competitors what I used
to breed this new plant ? Lets just sell it as "orchid" − all the people who
buy it in Sainsburys are not in the slightest bit interested to know it is a
Colmanara Jungle Monarch cross or whatever , they wouldn't know what that
means anyway.

Nowadays, I am afraid that orchid registration is just a system for
hobbyists doing their own breeding, and has nothing to do with the
commercial world.

In fact, I think I have put my finger on it. There are two worlds of
orchids. There is our world, made up of species, and hybrids in genera
undreamt of by Safeway and Morrisons, and we care about names.

And there is the factory produced world of hybrids imported by the million,
unnamed . The two worlds only meet when one of us buys a plant from one of
them ;don't complain because it doesn't meet our "rules" − just be glad that
you got a cheap plant and you can put a name on it if you want .

The business of show judging is a red herring anyway , whatever Henry says (
maybe he didn't think it through). In any serious orchid show who is going
to look twice at a plant which has obviously been bought from Sainsburys
last week ? − not this judge !

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: End result.
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008

I always use these type of labels, as they never wear out. I cut the corners to make them look a bit more fashionable.

From: JIM MATEOSKY
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label. Here t is called wildcat bobcat (Colmanara)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008

Here in Costa Rica we call it wildcat "bobcat" (Colmanara). But hey we make lots of names up here and have you ever heard of "lost in tanslation" if you only new how true that is ;-)

From: Paul Johnson
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Pleurothallis cogniauxiana
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008

Nat,
The culturing of this species is not within my experience, but I
rolled about [not literally!] in carpets of this species on my last
trip to Costa Rica. This is one of the more common species in the
cloud forests of northern Costa Rica, especially on the slopes above
Monteverde. It is primarily a terrestrial species in deep duff, but
also on decaying logs, low branches, large exposed roots, etc. In
terms of exposure it runs from what I would call moderate shade in the
forest to bright shade in open areas, i.e. gardens; always well
protected from the sun in the afternoon. Where it grows there is
cloud/fog drip or light mist most mornings. In the rainy season it is
wet, constantly. In the dry season it does best where there is some
protection from extreme drying and direct sun. I saw thousands of
plants in full bloom at the end of the dry season. Air movement seems
minimal with regard to wind, but on these mountain slopes there is
constant, slow, downslope air movement, even under the forest canopy.
Temperature wise the natural habitat is cool by tropical standards,
but it is rare for early morning temps to drop below 10dC (ca. 50dF),
and they are generally much warmer, > 15dC (ca.60dF). But, since this
is a widely distributed plant and regional and local conditions can
vary tremendously in the mountains of Central and South America, it
would be good if you knew the provenance of your plant(s).
Personally, barring any pest or disease evidence, I would suggest that
you look at the combination of conditions in which you are keeping the
plant(s), especially the potting mix, humidity changes through the
day, and temperature extremes.

From: jns tropic
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008

Nice to see that Rocky has his label. I have a label problem, but I don't worry about it. I have a few orchids that have lost there labels and I have forgotten their names. I like the label to let me know when it was potted and divided. Those labels carry the name St. Ray (as in C. StRay, Phal. St.Ray). For the last few years I don't even worry about the Saints. The flowers look good even if the name is missing.

From: Ron Bower
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk]names and labels
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008

> There are lots of reasons why plants are not labelled or named or
> registered by commercial growers, and railing against the practice
> is as useful as banging your head against a brick wall − it won't
> change a thing.

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Pleurothallis cogniauxiana
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008

As a continuation to Alan's message, I would say something similar. I am no expert either, but grow a large bunch of restrepias and other pleurothallid plants. And I couldn't agree more with Alan that leaves will drop if the plant is not happy.

Learn the temperature conditions and have a look at where you are growing your plants. As a curiosity, I have a Mas. striatella, which is one of the warmer growing masdevalias. I put it in the growing tanks with all my other pleurothallids. They are terrariums that get watered 8 times a day (on timer), and have 6 refrigerator fans running on 24/7. When I put it there, leaves started to drop for no reason... The problem? Too cold for it! I took it out just as there where only 4 leaves left... Within weeks, three new leaves were put out, and there is another one shooting through the moss now!

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008

I have been doing a bit of research on these names , Wildcat and Jungle
Monarch.

Two Jungle Monarchs are listed in the latest Wildcatt database ( March '08)
which I will assume to be correct. One is a straight Oncidium ( your's
looks like a straight Oncidium).

The other is a Pschopsychopsis ( This the current name for what we used to
call Oncidium krameri and O.papilio − the butterfly orchids which have one
flower open at a time, but sequentially flower for years, on long stems ).
That kind of habit or indeed distinctive shape of flower is not apparent in
your picture.

Colmanara is a man-made genus involving Odontoglossum, Oncidium and
Miltonia − what we used to call Brazilian Miltonias as distinct from the
pansy orchids now Miltoniopsis .

There is only one orchid named Wildcat in the whole of the complicated
Oncidiniae , and that is an Odontocidium. There is no Colmanara Wildcat.

I wonder if some of these changes (?) are a result of the recent earthquakes
in taxonomy due to DNA sequencing ? I certainly grew plants under the name
of Jungle Monarch 20 (?) years ago , looking similar to Roger's photo,
except that the yellow was much less bright − a difference which may be due
to the picture being "brightened up" in the image handling software.

I have also grown plants under the name Wildcat for some years − a whole
range of them − one mostly dark red, another with a lot of yellow, and most
with patterns of yellow lines on dark chocolate background. I can date this
to some extent, since I bought a flask of one named cv of Wildcat from the
nursery on Madeira ( not Betty Garfield, the one run by the German guy) and
I was last there to see the fireworks at the Millennium − the year 2000, and
Wildcat was well known to me then, But even then it was popularly called "a
Wildcat" without worrying about the genera.

What a can of worms. So you want the right name Roger ? If you want one
which can't be challenged, and won't be changed next week, call it
Oncidiniae hybrid.

From: Nathaniel Green
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Pleurothallis cogniauxiana
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008

Thank you all for you help and suggestions, just a small follow up question
if the orchid has no leave left is this the end or since it is mounted now
in a high humidity environment can it come back?

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Pleurothallis cogniauxiana
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008

As a rule of thumb, I only throw away orchids when the whole thing has turned brown/yellow and they crumble under my fingers... You never know what might happen.

Give it a couple of months, if the roots are still viable and the ramicauls are still green, a new shoot might follow if the conditions are right.

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.Wild Cat
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008

Geoff, I was just about to write an EMail saying that I had just received my shipment of Odont. alliance hybrids from Italy when I read your EMail. The plants are still about the best value I have seen in a long time − seven flowering size plants ordered − Four in spike when they arrived, two having just flowered andone large enough to flower.
Then I realised two were Colmanara Wild Cat. You are quite correct. It is not a registered hybrid but according to their web pictures a good looking flower.
Tomorrow I will E Mail them to see a) if I get a reply and b) do they know it's patentage of their Colmanara Wild Cat.
Regards from a very sunny North Devon. Dennis

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008

That was a most useful answer Geoff; it rather endorses my comment amout 'wanting' and 'needing'. The only 'need' is for an honest, hopefully correct label whether we be in science, selling or simply showing. There is no satisfaction in being uncertain and who'd 'want' to be uncertain? It's all to do with levels of certainty and when the ancestry of a hybrid involves several species or even multiple genera, what's the chance of being 'certain' from a picture?

Incidentally, came across your little intro-orchid book. (I won't say where!) but it's nice!

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Colmanara Wildcat hybrid.
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008

Dennis, if you have a look at this website: www.paramountorchids.com and then go to the relevant page, you will see that they list the parents of Colmanara Wildcat as: Odontioda Rustic bridge x Odontocidium Crowborough.

They also show Colmanara Jungle Monarch, Odontonia Debutante x Odontocidium maculatum. You will of course remember the fuss that I caused by searching for the correct name for my plant, which has left me feeling a bit chuffed for my perseverance. Having a look at 'Paramount's' photos does show the different colour of the anther cap and also the 'teeth' are different.

I am very pleased to hear that you also liked what you received from 'The Italians'. Do let us all know what you find out.

I went out to collect some Wild Orchid seed yesterday..........a completely different ballgame !!! More about that later.

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Rv: A late starter?
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008

> De: francis quesada pallares
> Asunto: A late starter?
> Para: licelia_2000@yahoo.es
> Fecha: sábado, 26 julio, 2008
> Not that long ago, I think it was Geoff who showed a
> flowering plant of Thunia Veitchii.
>
> He said it wasn't growing as well as in the past. Well,
> I have a question about thunias myself.
>
> I own four thunia plants. One marshalliana, one Veitchii,
> and two small plants of bensoniae.
>
> Last year, my two bensoniaes started growing much later
> than marshalliana. And this year, they had done nothing,
> they had not even shed the leaves from last year's
> growth! I thought they were just going to die, when
> yesterday, doing some watering, I realised that one of them
> has two small growths just shooting off from the base! Now,
> both Veitchii and marshalliana have grown, flowered and are
> now on their way to resting period... My question is, does
> anyone in this group have bensoniae, and if so, is it such a
> late starter for you too?
>
> The reason I ask is because I am aware that Veitchii is a
> cross between marshalliana and bensoniae, but if they are so
> out of synch when growing and presumably, when flowering, I
> wonder how someone managed to get that cross!
>
> Regards,
>
> Francis

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008

On 26 Jul, in article ,
John W Stanley wrote:
> That was a most useful answer Geoff; it rather endorses my comment
> amout 'wanting' and 'needing'.

> > What a can of worms. So you want the right name Roger ? If you
> > want one which can't be challenged, and won't be changed next
> > week, call it Oncidiniae hybrid.

Rocky, have you ever been a politician? In your message entitled 'Why
I need a name' you said quite a lot but never actually mentioned why
you *need* a name :-)

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008

Why do I need a name you ask, 'Tongue in cheek'. Well Tricia, lets just say
that a friend may look at the orchid in question and ask what its name is as
they would like to get one. Also, if I put it on a display bench, onlookers
may also ask that question.

If I was looking at any label, supermarket, road sign, I would hope that it
told the truth.

From: Cyril Whalley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Subsrcibe
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Enticement.
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008

I have always marvelled at the intricate patterns on some orchid lips, and the obvious enticement to the visiting insect.

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: Subsrcibe
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008

Your ISP was 'automatically rejecting' the messages on the grounds of
'quota exceeded', but hopefully they will decide to let them through
again :-)

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008

> Incidentally, came across your little intro-orchid book. (I won't say
> where!) but it's nice!

I used to find it terribly shaming that my books ( not all, but some) were
sold in shops selling what were said to be "remaindered" − implying that
they didn't sell...

But the publishing business is a funny one indeed./ My publisher − and of
course I didn't pick them − they picked me, and commissioned the books -
specialise in producing books which go straight to those shops...they are
never sold in straightforward "ordinary" book-shops. Sometimes they sell to
the biggy stores − one of mine went only to Matalan I believe ( in UK) and
to Barnes & Noble super-stores in USA I was told.

It costs only pence to produce and print and distribute a paper-back. A
very few pounds for a hard-back. The rest is a miserable pittance for the
author , and profit for the publisher/distributor/bookshop. Like most
technical book authors I did the first one without realising the amount of
work I was letting myself in for , and then negotiated larger sums for the
next − hoping to win though to the point where the pay would be worth-while,
but in practice always working at much less than the official minimum wage
rate per hour !

When I dug my heels in and refused to go further without proper payment
they went elsewhere; there are plenty of other mugs out there waiting to be
found...

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: FW: gold coloured orchids
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008

I get mail from people unknown to me − not scam, not phishing, not even
trying to sell me something which will enhance my sexual prowess − who wants
that in the latter part of their 8th decade , apart from Priapus himself ?
, but genuine mail from people who have found my address from goodness
knows where and want help about orchids − this one which I append below
uses an address which was part of a domain name I stopped paying for, a
couple of years ago !

If I can help , and it only takes a minute or two , I do so ( all those
brownie points I clock up ; if I thought that there is a heaven, I'm sure I
should go there alas, if only...)

Anyone who feels that they can be helpful − no rude messages please − feel
free to answer for me. I can't.

( I could suggest a few jewellers shops in Penang, and other places,
selling Vanda flowers, gold-plated, but I don't think that's what she
wants.)

Hi, my name is Sue, it is my Parents 50th wedding anniversary (golden) next
month and I would like to get them a gold coloured orchid, they already have
orchids, but I do not know much about them and do not want to ask my parents
as I want it to be a surprise. Could you please advise me about said orchids
and anyplace I can buy them from, price no matter. Any information would be
thankfully received.

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Rv: A late starter?
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008

I have found two kinds of Thunias growing together in one of the Thailand
National Reserves ; one was in seed pod on every plant , with canes as thick
as my thumb and only say 60- 75cm high , each plant having a clump of such
canes , and you had to look hard to see last year's shrivelled ones. And
the other kind, only metres away, where the canes were as thick as a pencil
only, 1- 1.5metres tall, several canes to a plant, (so not a new seedling ?
) , no sign of buds, flowers or pods, and again if you looked hard, you
could find the previous years shrivelled canes. No one spoke English when I
asked about them, so I got no idea of names. But this does suggest two
different flowering periods of two species, which will not hybridise in
nature.

But as to how they were induced to flower together (by Veitch, no doubt) ,
there are two answers. One is force them into rest ; dry them off, put them
outside ( I often do this with Thunias to stop them growing). The reverse of
course to start them off, but I think light a more likely trigger. But same
answer ; put them in the garden shed, and bring them into the light when you
want to start them.

The other answer is storing the pollen. Just put it in a jar in a frig'.
That's what serious breeders do.

But as to guessing the names of the ones I found, I have at least two
different successive editions of Nantiya Vaddhanaphuti's book "Wild orchids
of Thailand" − she taught Botany at Chiangmai university for some 20 years -
but she does not even list Thunias !

On one visit there I met Adam Cotton ( son of a once famous English amateur
grower ) who at that time was running a Thai Paph nursery which I think he
called "Papilio Orchids", and his library included a multi volume Thai Flora
- the sort of work (probably) produced in Victorian times, each book perhaps
A4 or larger, several inches thick, fine print on very thin paper, lots of
drawings of all dissected and separated flower parts, no colour etc, and no
doubt hopelessly out of date taxonomically ; but I imagine that is likely to
be in the Lindley library if you care to ask ? That might clear up some
doubt.

BTW I learnt the trick about storing pollen from Adam − he reckoned it was
good for 12 months, kept this way − and he was talking primarily about paphs
- not the easiest orchids to breed since they each seem to have a different
number for n , with their chromosome count.

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.- remaindering − James Bateman's Orchids of Mexico etc
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008

Being an ethical sort of chap I thought I shouldn't just broadcast it but I think it is a public domain thing anyway. The plates are scanned in bigger format (higher res) than the text but, as I'm sure you know, it is easy to scale pdfs to the paper size you wish.

I'm sure you have the ability to work your way into the pdf file but, just in case you have problems, I could send a CD . . one I prepared earlier as they say (who are they?)

The CD would also have Veitch's Manual of Cultivated orchids . . . . and a Lindley paper (I forget what) if you are interested.

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008

> Why do I need a name you ask, 'Tongue in cheek'. Well Tricia, lets
> just say that a friend may look at the orchid in question and ask
> what its name is as they would like to get one. Also, if I put it
> on a display bench, onlookers may also ask that question.

Well, in the past it has grabbed me quite painfully. I have sometimes
seen a plant on a display bench and decided to get one the same but
when ordered from a reputable supplier the plant received has turned
out to be nothing like the one I originally saw. I know better these
days and if possible check the name of plant and supplier with the
owner.

> > In fact, I think I have put my finger on it. There are two worlds
> > of orchids. There is our world, made up of species, and hybrids
> > in genera undreamt of by Safeway and Morrisons, and we care about
> > names.

> If I was looking at any label, supermarket, road sign, I would hope
> that it told the truth.

The point being if you buy a bargain unnamed plant, don't expect to
find an accurate name for it. After all if you have bought it from a
garden centre, supermarket or similar, it shouldn't be too difficult
for someone to find another one.

Latest survey shows that 3 out of 4 people make up 75% of the world's population.

From: Sue Brinsko
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: OT getting published
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008

geoff, I found your remarks re publishing/getting published very
interesting. I've often thought of trying to get some of my knitting
patterns and related items published. Sounds like it may not be
(financially) worth the effort. I don't know why I was surprised to hear
this. Sadly, this seems to be the case more often than not. For example, my
family was "into" llamas for quite some time... turns out much of the llama
'industry" was a pyramid scheme. Also sold my handmade wares at "craft
fairs" for a number of years....turns out the only people making a living
off of that were the ones renting out the tables or booths.Sue B

> Publishing is all a con of course.
>
> It costs only pence to produce and print and distribute a paper-back. A
> very few pounds for a hard-back. The rest is a miserable pittance for the
> author , and profit for the publisher/distributor/bookshop. Like most
> technical book authors I did the first one without realising the amount of
> work I was letting myself in for , and then negotiated larger sums for the
> next , hoping to win though to the point where the pay would be worth-while,
> but in practice always working at much less than the official minimum wage
> rate per hour !
>
> When I dug my heels in and refused to go further without proper payment
> they went elsewhere; there are plenty of other mugs out there waiting to be
> found...

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.- remaindering − James Bateman's Orchids of Mexico etc
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008

Geoff,
Your's was in 'The Works'. I am well aware that many books are published for the remaindered market but hadn't realised the mechanism. My daughter is in Hong Kong and was amazed at the cheap prices here (in the Works) of books which she knows are on sale there at their cover-printed price! HK is no longer a source of el-cheapo goods!

I once bought a genuinely remaindered copy of a biography of Huxley ('The Devil's Disciple') at a fractional price. The seller (a S/H seller) pointed out that the book was new and undamaged except for a stamp on the page edges saying 'damaged'. The seller made an interesting observation; "How would one describe a copy stamped 'undamaged' " he wondered!

Incidentally (just to legitimise an OT email − !) I recently downloaded a pdf copy of Bateman's 19thC Orchids Of Mexico and Guatemala with its magnificent colour plates and facsimile text. I'll email details if anyone's interested. Readers may know, that the original was an enormous tome of 'double-elephant' ( just over 39" X 26"size, the old imperial paper size category that is). It needed a small four-wheeled wagon for moving it around. Thankfully, the downloadable one is a mere A4 for the colour plates and rather smaller for the text. However, pdf can be sized for printing out for those who don't read e-books in the paperless (?!) world.

Incidentally, I have a friend wishing to publish a tome on a specific group of orchids. May I refer him to you for suggestions and/or advice geoff? (or you may already have met him!).

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] FW: gold coloured orchids
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008

From her mail is not clear to me whether she wants a gold coloured orchid (i.e. a living orchid with golden flowers) or an acutal gold orchid.

If the later, I have made some silver craft with orchid themed designs. It shouldn't be much more difficult for me to make them in gold instead, however, the time would be probably be an issue, as I will be away in August for a few days!

If she is interested (or anyone from the group) in seeing my designs, please do not hesitate to pass onto her my email address and she can contact me to request pictures of my designs.

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Colmanara Wild Cat
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008

I have just recieved a reply from Italy advising that the parentage of Colmanara Wild Cat is

With the quality and price of plants and the speed and efficiency of delivery together with their response to my question I shall certainly buy more plants.
Regards from a sun baked Devon Dennis

From: Alex Scott
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: Subsrcibe
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008

Cyril's subject line has subscribe spelt wrongly, maybe that is the problem?
Regards, Alex Scott

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Colmanara Wild Cat
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008

From: gavin horne
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: A day in the New Forest
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008

Hi all, yesterday (sunday) i spent a lovely afternoon on safari in the forest with head sherper 'Rocky Grier', our prey was the rare bog orchid and the equally uncommon 'green flowered helloborine'. We kicked of with a blank at a old site for the bog orchid but,hopefully it will return to this site at 'stoney cross'. Next we went to another site, and when Roger said he had marked the site with a old reed tied in a cross i couldn,t stop sniggering as what you have to appreciate is this site is a reed bed on a bog! And beleive you me he was good to his word 'eventually' they weren't so abundant here and we spent a good few hours with our heads down, and as ive never seen a bog orchid before this day you can imagine how funny and frustrating this was; but i eventually got my eye in and annoyed Roger by finding the biggest specimen of the day! I cant remember this sites name so perhaps Roger will be good enough to tell you all.Next we went to a real good site called matley bog, this is what you might imagine a true bog to look like and i was looking so hard that i went in upto my thighs,luckily sherper Rocky was close at hand and pulled me to safety, but i think this brought us good luck as we found a fare few here and placed many marker sticks. We were both very happy now and Rocky decided he would take me to a green flowered helloborine site or two. And good to his word as ever we struck lucky at two sites though we are still about a week early on the flowers.All in all a smashing afternoon in the forest, with a great guide,thanks Rocky.And for your viewing pleasure ive attached a few photo's.Ive included one of the guide so you might recognise him at shows etc.Happy growing! Gavin

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: Subsrcibe
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008

On 28 Jul, in article ,
Alex Scott wrote:
> Cyril's subject line has subscribe spelt wrongly, maybe that is the
> problem?

> > Hi
> > Not had any mail for about 3 weeks, hope all is well.
> > Cyril
> >
> > cyril.whalley@virgin.net

Cyril's ISP was returning the messages undelivered because they
claimed his account was over quota, he was still subscribed :-)

There has been a lot of this kind of thing lately, especially from
virgin.net and btinternet.com − I get quite a lot of messages
returned and then suddenly it's OK for a while.

Incidentally, the mail list server accepts quite a few mis-spellings
of subscribe but not Cyril's, which is why his message ended up going
to everyone.

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.- remaindering − James Bateman's Orchids of Mexico etc
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008

John Stanley wrote : Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.- remaindering − James Bateman's Orchids of Mexico etc

> Incidentally (just to legitimise an OT email − !) I recently downloaded a
> pdf copy of Bateman's 19thC Orchids Of Mexico and Guatemala with its
> magnificent colour plates and facsimile text. I'll email details if anyone's
> interested. Readers may know, that the original was an enormous tome of
> 'double-elephant' ( just over 39" X 26"size, the old imperial paper size
> category that is). It needed a small four-wheeled wagon for moving it
> around. Thankfully, the downloadable one is a mere A4 for the colour plates
> and rather smaller for the text. However, pdf can be sized for printing out
> for those who don't read e-books in the paperless (?!) world.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: The Bog Orchid.
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008

No doubt you have read what Gavin has said about our 'Expedition' into the New Forest Bogs in search of the VERY TINY Bog orchid.

I am in no doubt that he was pleased, as they are so tiny..........it took my friends and I, many year ago, two and a half years to find the first one..........because what most books said was a complete load of rubbish.

If you bare in mind that they are not much bigger than a matchstick then you can begin to appreciate the difficulty.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Helleborine hell !!!
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008

Sunday's Safari also produced some very excellent Broad-leaved Helleborines, and as the images show, there is a fantastic colour range in them, so much so that they can have you tearing your hair out to exactly put a name to them. But then of course they do hybridise one hell of a lot.

To this extent, Gavin and I were chewing this matter over, and I am, in the next week or so, going to photograph not only the flowers and the plant, but the leaves of each species, and then put together an Identification chart just talking/showing the difference in their leaves.

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Label.- remaindering − James Bateman's Orchids of Mexico etc
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008

Very kind John. That is a wonderful site you have found − I browsed around
it a bit thinking about the copyright implications, which are complex. Of
course a book published 100 years ago is entirely out of copyright , at
least from that edition, with some element of doubt about possible copyright
in a much later reprint, where it might be possible to argue that some
copyright work was done in resetting the type etc or perhaps in preparing
new plates, for a more modern age; I did wonder if those who did the work
in preparing the pdf might argue for it , but it seems that here the
intention in doing the work is the very laudable one of making it available.
How refreshing. How nice. And of course the contributing members of the
library including RBG Kew should not be commercial , although it would not
surprise me to find that they have been privatised and sold to some dodgy
"private enterprise group" whilst we were not looking....

If you do have a spare CD I'd be delighted to be saved the work. I'll send
a copy of this as a p.m. with my current address on.

From: Esther Koh
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] The Bog Orchid.
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008

Wow, great hunting! They look like the sort of plants people trample on without even realising.

> No doubt you have read what Gavin has said about our 'Expedition'
> into the New Forest Bogs in search of the VERY TINY Bog orchid.

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Odontoglossum Alliance
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008

I am sure somewhere out there in the "Ether" there is someone that knows the full list of the species covered by this alliance. I have just discovered that Lemboglossum, in many cases , is now Rhynchostels. To me it really does not matter what they are called but when you are searching for species it is best if you know the Genera name.
I have not been successful on the web but someone may know a site'
Regards from a soaking Devon, Dennis

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Odontoglossum Alliance
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008

> I am sure somewhere out there in the "Ether" there is someone that knows the
> full list of the species covered by this alliance. I have just discovered
> that Lemboglossum, in many cases , is now Rhynchostels. To me it really does
> not matter what they are called but when you are searching for species it is
> best if you know the Genera name.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: The U.K. Bog Orchid.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008

Yes the orchid is so very small. Not much taller than a matchstick and the stem is 0.75mm in diameter. And as you can see from the close up image, the flowers are one colour and almost transparent.....very difficult to get a good photo. Especially as you are standing in a bog with the muddy water half way up your boots.

There is no way that you can lay down, so I just hold the camera just above the water/mud/bog, parallel with the plant and hope for the best.

I do know of one bog where it might just be possible to lay down in front of any plant that might be growing there, but then it's all down to time and finding them.

The flowers of the Bog orchid are always presented with the lip uppermost. And the tiny leaves grow new plantlets on their edges.

From: Sue Brinsko
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: are these orchids or not
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008

On my "looking for native orchids" walks, I keep seeing these tiny yellow
flowers. At first I concluded they are not orchids (the "parts'" don't look
exactly right), but the parts are so fused looking I'm not sure. what do you
think? (I hope the pics are clear enough). Sue B

From: David Martin
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] are these orchids or not
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008

Hello Sue,
Looks like Common Toadflax "Linaria vulgaris" flowers similar to Antirrhinum but with different leaves.
David

From: Paul Johnson
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] are these orchids or not
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008

That plant is Linaria vulgaris. It is an invasive weed on this side
of the pond. Pretty, but often not wanted. You are correct that it
looks like a snapdragon; it belongs to the same family Scrophulariaceae.

MONTH	DATE	DATE	DATE	DATE	MONTH	DATE	DATE	DATE	DATE
January	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31	February	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-29
March	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31	April	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-30
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2008 Archived Messages

22—31 July