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2007 Archived Messages


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MONTHDATEDATEDATEDATEMONTHDATEDATEDATEDATE
January 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31 February 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-28
March 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31 April 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-30
May 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31 June 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-30
July 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31 August 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31
September 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-30 October 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31
November 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-30 December 1-7 8-14 15-21 22-31

1—7 November

From: jns tropic
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] the frustrations of getting old and obstreperous
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

Francis if you came into my garden I would be surprised
if you didn't go home with a plant or two. Absolute
strangers may not fair so well.

francis quesada pallares wrote: Hey Jns,

> Are you offering plants to people? LOL!

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From: jns tropic
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Wouldn't it be nice if !!!
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

I think the thing that we most want is to have the smart guys stop changing the orchid names. Some of my plants are friends. One of my friends has bloomed almost year around since 1949. My Epi. chocheatum has had 4 or 5 changes during that time. I don't plan to change this friends name any time soon. This will fly past new growers. But give them time and they will know what I'm talking about.

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From: Paul Johnson
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Question?
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

Hello Max,
As a fellow stanhopeaphile I would recommend that you send your photo
(s) to Dick Hartley at member@rjhartley.freeserve.co.uk. Of course,
you could always post it on this list as there are a number of
competent readers. You may also wish to refer to the following
websites, including Hartley's, that collectively have photographs of
most of the species.

http://www.autrevie.com/Stanhopea/Stanhopea_TheSpecies.html
http://www.foxdale-orchids.co.uk/Photo_Gallery.htm
http://www.orchidsrepbiol.de/cgi-bin/img_db/img_display.pl?db_vwstanhopeinae&tusr_gg1

In the meantime, dispense with the name "Stan. frankensteaniana" as
it surely is not correct. I might suggest from the name style that
you may have a poorly written tag for Stan. reichenbachiana. A good
photo showing the salient structures of the flower, as color and
pattern are not always reliable due to variation, should provide the
necessary characteristics for identification.

stanhopealogically,

Paul

On Oct 31, 2007, at 3:36 AM, Max Redman wrote:

> Hi Folks,
> I am hoping that someone out in the big wide world of experts can help
> me. I have a large number of Stanhopeas in my collection and have one
> which I bought as a small seedling or plant some years ago which is
> labelled Stan.frankensteaniana.

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Members growing information.
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

Mornin' Tony,

You say that you live south of the Equator..........where abouts?

If you are rather warmer than us British growers, can you not just open all the windows and doors to let in the fresh air and turn a couple of fans off now and again, or is the price of your electricity much cheaper than ours???

On the subject of cost, does anyone know how tom work out the cost of running fans etc.

Regards, Rocky.

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Name changing.
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

Mornin' 'Tropic',

And once again it is a fabulous morning here, sun is shining down from a cloudless sky, and it is so mild for this time of year..........long may it continue.

I could not agree with you more about the 'plonkers' that keep on changing the names of our orchids THAT WE HAVE BEEN USING FOR YEARS. And people still know what we are talking about when we do use the names that we are used to.

There are a few Oak trees growing in the New Forest and they have been there for hundreds of years, and do you know, folk still call them 'Oak trees'.

Maybe these name changing nutters should keep the changes to themselves and let us orchid growers keep ours. If they want to call them a different name to us, that's fine by me, but no one will understand what they are talking about..........that is just for the small bunch of people that they associate with.

It would be nice if the suppliers of orchids, especially at shows kept to the old established/recognised names.

Regards, Rocky.

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Question?
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

Hi Max,
Can't help with S.frankensteaniana but here is a man (below) who might. Dick
Hartley holds the National Collection of Stanhopeas in the UK. (I got his
email from http://www.erythos.com/BOC/NatColl.html . I have searched all the
web locations I know and can't find it. Sometimes sellers add a ficticious
name because a named orchid sells better than an unnamed one. Have you a
photo?
Also, have you tried Jay Pfahl's Orchid encyclopedia (online)?
http://www.orchidspecies.com/indexser.htm No mention of yours but he does
have good illustrations of many and you might get close (of course, it could
be a hybrid).
Anyway, you could do worse than ask (although I can't get his website);

Web Site http://www.geocities.com/foxdaleorchidsuk/

John

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Wouldn't it be nice if !!!
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

Problem is,many orchids were originally named in the belief that they belonged to genera (or bigger groups) to which we now know they don't. Unless some "smart guy" has another look from time to time we would finish up with a whole bunch of meaningless names.
To many of us, a name is simply a verbal handle on a "friend". If that is all you want, why bother with latinised formal names at all? A bee orchis is a bee orchid is a bee orchid. The same is true of pyramidal, marsh and hundreds of others. The reason we have latinised names is simply to achieve an internationally recognised sytem of names that reflect close relationships. Without these names, much scientific research would be pointless because we wouldn't know the significance of the plants being studied.
The problem is that many popularly unknown or unnamed species have suddenly become of interest to we growers/collectors and we aren't very interested in the serious taxonomic stuff.
Taxonomists would get no respect from their peers if they tried to publish name changes simply on a whim.

A few years ago I tried to explain all this to members of my orchid society with a jokey (but I hope accurate) analysis of the problem with one species that happens to have had some very informative revisions to its name. At the risk of being hounded out of OT as a raving nutcase I attach the piece for your reaction and hopeful conversion.

Just trying to be helpful!!!!!!!!

John

jns tropic wrote on Thursday, November 01:

> I think the thing that we most want is to have the smart guys stop
> changing the orchid names. Some of my plants are friends. One of my
> friends has bloomed almost year around since 1949. My Epi. chocheatum
> has had 4 or 5 changes during that time. I don't plan to change this
> friends name any time soon. This will fly past new growers. But give
> them time and they will know what I'm talking about.

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] wouldn't it be nice if ?
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

OT Orchid Talk, Old Testament, On Time or whatever!
I'm a geologist so I think in terms of millions, if not billions of years!
The OT isn't all that long ago anyway, in evolutionary terms.
Folks were squabbling then and they're squabbling now, what's new?
There was a mass extinction 65 million years ago (I remember it well) and we're in another one now.
Who was it that remarked "It's deja vu all over again" ?
(More seriously, no! I'm not so old. But a bit past my sell-by date nevertheless!)
Geriatric John

Beccy Holmes wrote on Tuesday, October 30:

> OT.... surely not Old Testament, you can't be THAT old?

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From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: Members growing information.
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

On 01 Nov, in article ,
Roger Grier wrote:
> Mornin' Tony,

> You say that you live south of the Equator..........where abouts?

They do say it's the short-term memory which goes first − or is the
long-term, I can't remember :-^)

Anyway, Tony Watkinson wrote on Mon, 15 Oct 2007:

> > And for Rocky, I live in Perth Western Australia.

PS :-^) is the emoticon for 'tongue-in-cheek'.

--

Tricia

The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up.

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Name changing.
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

But Roger,
Those "name changing nutters" were the ones that invented the system of nomenclature you choose to use and are then grousing about. If you want names that don't change then use the choatic multi-meaning ones that were in vogue before Linnaeus. Nobody is forcing you to use his emendable latinised naming system if you prefer the common names.

Trouble is, go outside UK and talk about Common spotted, Green Winged or Heath Spotted orchid and it is unlikey that you'd be understood. Give them their Latinised scientific name and anyone anywhere can sort out what you mean or even look 'em up in a Chinese orchid manual. See the attachment in my other email about this topic. That'll change your mind . . or not! Also, the name changes chronicle the history of changed ideas about a particular plant − more than Shepherd's Purse or Lady's Bedstraw does, quaint though they are.
John

Roger Grier wrote:

> Mornin' 'Tropic',

> And once again it is a fabulous morning here, sun is shining down from
> a cloudless sky, and it is so mild for this time of year..........long
> may it continue.

> I could not agree with you more about the 'plonkers' that keep on
> changing the names of our orchids THAT WE HAVE BEEN USING FOR YEARS.
> And people still know what we are talking about when we do use the
> names that we are used to.

> There are a few Oak trees growing in the New Forest and they have been
> there for hundreds of years, and do you know, folk still call them 'Oak
> trees'.

> Maybe these name changing nutters should keep the changes to themselves
> and let us orchid growers keep ours. If they want to call them a
> different name to us, that's fine by me, but no one will understand
> what they are talking about..........that is just for the small bunch
> of people that they associate with.

> It would be nice if the suppliers of orchids, especially at shows kept
> to the old established/recognised names.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Memory.
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

Thanks for the information Tricia,

So, Tony lives in Perth..........is that Perth Scotland, or Perth Australia....ouch!

As I have said many times, the older we get, the more information we store, and the longer it takes to find it.

But it sure gives us a boost when we get there within a minute.

Rocky.

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: John's piece of poetry.
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

Hi John,

Fabulous piece of poetry, really something nice and humorous to read.

Was it your poem? If so, well done.

All of those names to remember..........

Trouble with us 'Orchidologists' is trying to remember all of the names and especially to spell them correctly, while also going about our own other interests in life.

At the moment I am trying to remember to take photos of my latest Cattleya, keep an eye on spikes and sheaths that are doing very well indeed while researching the line-up for 'Earl McDonalds/Clifford Hayes, Original Louisville Jug Band of 1927.

So you see Tricia that's how the brain shuts down now and then.

Regards, Rocky.

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From: jns tropic
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] wouldn't it be nice if ?
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

John can I use it?
I'm not so old. But a bit past my sell-by date nevertheless!

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Woops ! With TWO 'o's,
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

Hi Rocky,

Sorry to be late with a response but I've only just seen the email!

From an orchids viewpoint (if they have a view!) then Purbeck Sone is a limestone in which calcium carbonate (lime) is the relevant component. This rock is also wrongly called Purbeck Marble, an old geological term, but by modern geological definitions it isn't a marble at all since it hasn't been substantially altered (recrystallised). As with orchids, anyone is entitled to call it whatever they wish but for universal understanding, limestone is the term.

The significant thing is that limestone will dissolve in acidic conditions and therefore its calcium can be liberated. Whether or not your orchids need it, or have the ability to get it I leave to you!

Just another aspect; some limestones (Purbeck for one) are pretty tough and not porous. The surface that can be wetted is the broken surface you see. Other limestones are porous (Cotwold oolites for example) and have pore spaces between grains. These, therefore, have a larger surface area and also take longer to dry out (a possibly relevant feature).

Purbeck 'Marble' is valued as an ornamental stone and when polished reveals masses of freshwater snail fossils. It was used in the Middle Ages for church ornamentation and grave stones. Even the gravel from sculpting it was bagged and exported to locations in the north. In a church near me, Audley near Soke on Trent, such a Purbeck Marble gravel was reconstituted into a cemented synthetic marble, polished and used to emulate a slab of the real thing. It confused me when I was once asked to identify it!!

Bottom line; a limestone (but I can't imagine why any other limestone wouldn't satisfy a carbonate loving orchid). A gravel, or fragments of it could easily be cleaned since there are no small pores for 'nasties' to hide in. Is that helpful?

Have a look at http://www.stone.uk.com/history/ but I haven't found a detailed photo of a polished piece which would look grey with darker little spirals and crescents of cut shells tightly packed and about 6-7mm across. Wetting a dry piece may make these easy to see on an unpolished bit.

The next question usually is; how do we know these snails were freshwater and not marine (saltwater) ones? Well, . . . . . . . . .

Here endeth the lesson!!
John

Roger Grier wrote on September 29;

> Good morning to you John.

> As you know, I do have a couple of orchids potted in broken pieces of
> 'Purbeck Stone'. Can you please tell all that you know about this type
> of rock. Especially, does it have anything that an orchid might like
> even in very minute form.

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From: Ron Bower
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Cost of Keeping Orchids
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

Hello,

Not long ago a lady member queried if growing Orchids was worth the bother. Recently Ron, the other Ron, mentioned that his wife had questioned the heating costs since returning to the UK, and now Geoff, somewhat dischuffed is considering reducing his commitment.These, as well as my increasing age, now nudging 81, are making me think as to if our hobby is worth the effort, or the cost.

Regarding the effort, you either can or you can't or do or don't, do it, and as the time goes on the mind may be willing but the spirit is weak and the effort needed is greater or maybe too great. Rocky comments on the diverse ways and conditions in which we grow out plants and appears to be able to manage with the minimum of equipment and running cost needed, and questions the need for fans, and as I see my Gas & Electricity bills mounting, I question the need for growing them.

I wonder if any one has ever produced a formula for calculating the costs involved for growing warm house, in my case Phals Orchids, or does any one, infact know the facts or costs? Location is of course the main factor, and it will certainly cost more for me in the North East of this country than say Rocky or Geoff in the south, or growers in the southern hemispheres, USA, Australia and such.

My setup is a 16 x 8 foot greenhouse, 6ft to the eaves, 8.5ft to ridge 3 foot brick walls. I grow under lights and calculate my electrictricity cost, this last year to maintain the required temperature to be about £1900.00. and rising. Then there is also the current in thing, global warming,your Carbon Footprint to consider,not that it bothers me much as I do not now fly anywhere but do have a 3.5 litre gas guzzling car.

Regards,

Ronbow.
PS.
Rocky. I have just read your mail asking if any one knows how to calculate the cost of running a fan/fans.
I am not sure if you are kidding, for as an intelligent and mature person which I think you are, you must surely know to calculate the running cost for any electric appliance is:- Wattage x use kilowatt hours x cost per unit or PKH.
RB.

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From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Members growing information.
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

Tricia − I can ell you , quite definitely, that Perth (Australia) is in
the Southern hemisphere, or at least it was last week.

However Perth ( the real Perth) is in Scotland, which is rather further
north than man can safely go in the Northern Hemisphere.In fact, on my map
it's marked as "here be dragons" − although I also have to admit that the
Ozzie Perth is not marked at all − its terra incognito...

Geoff

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From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] wouldn't it be nice if ?
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

I have often wondered about that mass extinction − any of them, in fact. So, conditions were bad for 3 years − were dinosaurs so short-lived ? Did they really all die in 3 years ? Seems so unlikely.
We'll never know, unless someone really invents a time-machine, and after struggling through some of Stephen Hawkings' publications − which after much study and many ice-bags I completely understood, for sveral minutes , I believe to be theoretically possible... However , I also understood ( this bit I do remember even now) that a time-shift has to be a one-way mechanism, so anyone brave enough to try the time machine will go and find out, but be unable to come back and tell us. On that basis, and since I have already booked a table for lunch on Sunday ( in the 21st century not the Jurassic) I am not a volunteer.

Geoff

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From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Wouldn't it be nice if !!! and Roger, please read
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

John, I am IMMENSELY IMPRESSED ( no Tricia , it MUST have capital letters, I know I'm shouting − but here we have a poet worthy of his laureate ! − this is the exception).

After that it is quite an anticlimax to give an even better example ?

When the first masdevallias were found by stout Cortez's men − in the days when the Holy Roman conquistadors set out to bloody murder the Incas , all in their search for gold − quite a holy matter since gold looks so well on altars, don't you think ? − they were called Epidendrums....

Now Roger , if you read this far , you wouldn't want Masdevallias called Epidendrums would you ? Then you must agree to nomenclatural changes... I'm wrong ? You would ? Then I give up.

geoff

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From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: Memory.
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

On 01 Nov, Roger Grier wrote:
> Thanks for the information Tricia,

> So, Tony lives in Perth..........is that Perth Scotland, or Perth
> Australia....ouch!

> As I have said many times, the older we get, the more information we
> store, and the longer it takes to find it.

Ain't that the truth! I shall still tease you if you ask him again, though
- provided I remember, of course :-)

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Name changing with reference to oak trees.
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007

Roger,
I've just re-read your email on 'name-changing nutters'. My original response is still as I want it but, in fact, in your email you have yourself demonstrated the very point I was making!
When you grouse about orchids' name changes, you are referring to the formal scientific Linnaean nomenclature (or its modern derivative).

However, when you refer to "oak trees" (without looking 'em up in the book) can you recall (a) what the generic name is (Quercus) and (b) to which of some 400-odd species those trees belong?
I know little about the nomenclature of Oak trees (other than the Latin name Quercus), but I'd be amazed if there haven't been occasional nomenclatural revisions to some of them within living memory (if only to expand their number from one to hundreds!) And if you wonder if splitting them to all these species is useful, read up about the catastrophic spread of Sudden Oak Death and the need to know precisely which oak you are dealing with. Equivalent names to the latinised orchid ones you grumble about may well not be as stable as you suggest. Also, remember that the ongoing task of 'sorting out' the 25-30,000 orchid species cannot be 'done and dusted' in one fell swoop. It takes time.

Sorry to go on about it but name changes are a part and parcel of reflecting new scientific knowledge.
If you aren't interested in that (and there is no reason why you should be) why are you so obsessed with using scientific names at all. (Of course, it could be because there aren't 25-30,000 common names and that could be because hundreds of scientific species were dumped in one common-name category as 'the same' when, in fact, we could all discriminate between many.

Did you know that a common New Forest Oak is Quercus petraea (I didn't until a minute ago!)
Illustrating the point even sharper; do you know what Australian Oak is (not an oak but a convenient subtitute by early settlers!) I could go on but I suggest that if you consult http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Quercus_species you might become aware that identifying an oak compares favourably (or unfavourably ?) with orchid name problems.

Please don't let nomenclature spoil your enjoyment Rocky. On the other hand, if you want accuracy of identification you can't escape as accurate a taxonomy as its present state allows.
Cheers (now what was all that stuff about sand . . . . we do cover some ground in this forum)
Best wishes
John

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] wouldn't it be nice if ?
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Hi Geoff,
Where did this "three years" stuff come from. There is no way that geologists, biologists, soothsayers or anyone else can measure time with such resolution from evidence of rocks from 65,000,000 years ago (0.00005% accuracy would be good going!!). Also, considering the time taken for recovery from the event and the expansion of a diversity of mammals and other species, we have to be thinking in thousands of years
(and I'd be proud of an accuracy of less than 0.1% if I could be sure of that).Even if you accept meteoritic impact as the cause of the K/T event, the demise of many species wouldn't be an equally abrupt phenomenon. If you are surprised at the rate of dinosaur demise just take a look at the number of species Homo spaiens has succeeded in seeing off. Also, remember that the dinosaurs were just the few that capture public imagination and were but a small fraction of the whole picture. Also, note that all dinosaurs weren't biggies but many were chicken-sized or less.

I don't share your (I think) cynicism about the proof of the event although I'm far from 100% convinced that the Chicxulub meteorite was the only cause rather than a contributory one and that suggests that unless several events were nanosecond syncronised and all sudden, then a significant time span is likely. Dont forget all the 'pollution' from the Deccan Plateau basalts could have stirred the climate a bit! Mount St Helens or even a supervolcano would be dwarfed by that event.
John

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] John's piece of poetry.
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Hi Roger,
Yes, all "me own work guv". It was a piece of literary evolution itself because, although after acquiring an Aerides vandarum, I quickly discovered the homonymy of Hooker's and Lindley's orchids (same name for different things whereas synonymy is different names for the same thing), I learned much more by chasing up details. During the course of it I discovered several anomalies in Bechtel, Cribb and Leunart (like two cited different type species for Papilionanthe.) Many years ago I needed to dip my toes in taxonomy professionally when studying invertebrate fossils, but this was far more fun because it never had to go into a thesis!

Like so many teaching exercises (which is how it started out), the teacher learns more than the students (CANWOS members).

If inspiration is the appropriate word, there are several authors who have been down the poetic science route before. The one I would urge you to read if you found my effort at all rewarding is Walter Garstang. The following two examples are from his little book, larval forms.
http://www.imagequest3d.com/pages/articles/articleofmonth/veliger/veligerpoem.htm
http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/bioee274/excerpts&poems/garstang3.html
A more modern approach to the difficult topic of biochemical pathways is a songbook by Harold Baum, the Biological Songbook. Examples at; http://www.csulb.edu/~cohlberg/songbook.html.

Maybe if I suggest you listen to 'Photosynthesis', Tricia will then pardon my off-topic sorties! So I had better refrain from recommending the absolutely excellent and irresistable other songs listed at this site.
John

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From: Sue Brinsko
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: OT British slang
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Just out of curiosity, is "dischuffed" the opposite of "chuffed"? Sue B

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] wouldn't it be nice if ?
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Why not? I was inspired by a supermarket label and I don't claim copyright on words I steal from the Oxford English Dictionary! (Anyway, the sell-by date isn't nearly as important as the use-by date. Careful preservation might even extend that!),
John

jns tropic wrote:

> John can I use it?
> I'm not so old. But a bit past my sell-by date nevertheless!

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] John's piece of poetry.
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Hi Rocky,
Thanks for the complimment. I understand your irritation with changing names and I wouldn't attempt to defuse your anger! However, being angry and understanding why something happens aren't mutually exclusive! I'd be pretty angry if my house blew up 'cos of a gas leak somewhere but I'd also understand why or how (if I survived it)!
It is also the case that some scientific name changes are, in some opinions, misjudged. However, overall, a working naming system, responding to new information/knowledge, is far better than one that fixes known errors for ever more.
Keep growing (and grumbling).
You may remember ITMA and the character Mona Lott (?) "It's bein' so cheerful as keeps me goin'.". We may have been down that road before!
Oh, just one other thing; don't think that forgetting names is a peculiarity of amateur growers. The truth is that unless one has phenomenal memory, only by 'living a subject' or topic as a near full-time occupation do these scientific names become a part of an everyday vocabulary. Another problem is pronunciation; there are no rules (oh no there aren't). Unless you've heard someone pronounce a name an apparently chaotic jumble of letters becomes as much a visual memory as peculiar noise in the head. We all suffer from that to some extent. (Try reading War and Peace!)
John

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] OT British slang
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Sue,
I've never heard of "dischuffed"and to me, would imply a change from "chuffed" to the opposite.
ln the world I inhabit, an appropriate opposite would be "p*ssed off" but that might not be acceptable in such refined society as this. Although, in the elite world of politics, one Richard Nixon wasn't averse to expletives requiring deletion and social status doesn't get much higher than that! Similarly, I think the Duke of Edinburgh is not averse to the use of such upper-crust slang! I think we could say that Rocky is p*ssed off with orchid name changes for example.

Out of curiosity, is English your first language? Shakespeare and Chaucer used some pretty ripe phrases!

Cheers
John

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From: jns tropic
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] wouldn't it be nice if ?
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Your answer is pure poetry.

John Stanley wrote:

> Why not? I was inspired by a supermarket label and I don't claim
> copyright on words I steal from the Oxford English Dictionary! (Anyway,
> the sell-by date isn't nearly as important as the use-by date. Careful
> preservation might even extend that!),

jns tropic asked on Thursday, November 01:

> > John can I use it?
> > I'm not so old. But a bit past my sell-by date nevertheless!

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From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] John's piece of poetry.
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

John said -
Unless you've heard someone pronounce a name an apparently chaotic jumble of letters becomes as much a visual memory as peculiar noise in the head.

You may be amused to hear that up to the time I started attending RHS lectures etc ,and heard the word pronounced, I always referred to my Herb -aqueous border... and no I was not into water gardening at the time, just lupins , michaelmas daisies, and the usual stuff

Geoff

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From: Ron Bower
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] OT British slang
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

John,
I must say that I am surprised that you as a Britain, living in Britain and clearly with considerable literary skills, have not heard of the word dischuffed. I have been aware of and used it for most of my life.Certainly it is not in any Dictionary that I possess, but Google is aware of it and gives several examples of the use.
Regards,

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From: PG Hieke
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Members growing information.
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Hi Rocky,
If the outside temperature is in the thirties centigrade then
opening of windows and doors will not help. On the contrary you
loose all your humidity and the plants would shrivel in no time.
A fan uses less than 1 kw per day, dependend on the speed setting
and size of fan. An average fan uses about 40 − 60 watt per hour.
Kind regards
Peter from Bloubergstrand

Roger Grier wrote on Thursday, November 01:

> Mornin' Tony,

> You say that you live south of the Equator..........where abouts?

> If you are rather warmer than us British growers, can you not just open
> all the windows and doors to let in the fresh air and turn a couple of
> fans off now and again, or is the price of your electricity much
> cheaper than ours???

> On the subject of cost, does anyone know how tom work out the cost of
> running fans etc.

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Purbeck stone, Names, and Poetry.
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Hi there John,

Many thanks for the reply about 'Purbeck Stone'. The piece that interested me was your mention of the 'life' that formed them and the hardness of it. That's why then that they use it as roof tiles in the area.

The name changes. I guess I came over not quite as I intended, as I was moaning about why 'they' kept on changing the Miltonias, the Epidendrums and then Oncidiums.

For sure, Orchis morio will 'hopefully', always be Orchis morio..........'Green-veined orchid' to you and I. And the Oak tree and other tress will remain the same.

Some years ago I started to learn the names of our trees, even by looking at them when out of leaf etc. Very rewarding.

Congratulations on your poem, excellent.

My poems and odes are on a different level. The orchid poetry is to help people identify them, and my odes are mostly comical.

THE GREEN VEINED ORCHID

Sometimes called the Green Winged Orchid

must admit, sounds daft to me!

aint got green wings at all

got green veins though, see!

There on the sepals and petals

protecting the parts that matter

like the pollinia that the insects remove

a subject of eternal chatter

What colour are these orchids?

s'pose I could answer with a grin

just about every hue

from brandy, through claret to gin

'tis true there shades be many

and one year you'll find plenty

but beware my friends

the next year only twenty

And in the winter months

when you're sat by the fire

spare a thought for these lovely orchids

which surely you must admire

They sits out there close to the ground

where snow and hoar frost do abound

patiently waiting in the rain

to bloom once more...'twas not in VEIN.

Kind regards, Rocky.

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Costings, electrical.
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Hi Ronbow,

Thanks for the formula: Wattage x use kilowatt hours x cost per unit or PKH.

Rocky.

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: For Sue.
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Hi Sue,

No, never heard of 'Dischuffed'.

Opposite to being 'Chuffed' would be bloody annoyed or something similar.

O.K. mush?

Rocky.

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: U.K. Wild Orchids.
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Evenin' John,

I see that you mentioned a few of the names of our Wild Orchids. Are you deeply interested in them as I am???

Rocky.

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] U.K. Wild Orchids.
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Hi Rocky,
I'm interested in any orchids but more so in natural species than the artificial hybrids. I see wild orchids in Anglesey most years but my brain refuses to recall the names of the ones I distinguish in May (except for the Bee Orchid and the pyramidal. I am certainly no expert in any but I don't think expertise is necessarily linked to interest. What really fascinates me is the co-evolution of orchids and their pollinators. In that connection my wife has just noticed that we have Angraecum sesquipidale in flower just now. I'll attach a pic tomorrow when I can easily photograph it. I guess you know that this is the species from Madagascar for which Darwin predicted the eventual discovery of a moth with a foot long (30cm) proboscis to reach down the spur. He was ridiculed for the suggestion but was vindicated (posthumously I think) when such a moth was eventually discovered.

Trouble with hybrids is that this relationship is often lost and they seem merely to have co-evolved with a camel hair brush!

The real problem with expertise is that the more discovered or learned, the more one is aware of one's increasing ignorance.

Personally, like Manuel from Fawlty Towers, "I know n-O-thing."
John

Roger Grier wrote on November 02:

> Evenin' John,

> I see that you mentioned a few of the names of our Wild Orchids. Are
> you deeply interested in them as I am???

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From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] OT British slang
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

I'm a Briton too ( probably an ancient Briton) . I have to say that I have never heard of dischuffed before this week ; as for chuffed itself, I don't think I have heard it used since I was in the army − and I was demobbed 55 years ago !

Maybe its a regional thing ?

geoff

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From: Tony Watkinson
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Members growing information.
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Peter is quite right. (See below) This is particularly so when you live in a dry climate. The problem is that if you shut the greenhouse up, the inside temp just gets hotter. Air coolers (Or swamp coolers in the US) can help the situation, but even they tend to struggle (Unless you have a REALLY big one). Frequent misting and watering the floor helps to keep up the humidity when you have the doors open. And you really do need that air exchange as the orchids will quickly eat up all the carbon dioxide in a closed greenhouse.

That's what we have to do in PERTH Rocky. (Just thought I'd remind you where I live in case you were wondering again.) :-)

Tony

PG Hieke wrote on Saturday, November 03:

> If the outside temperature is in the thirties centigrade then
> opening of windows and doors will not help. On the contrary you loose
> all your humidity and the plants would shrivel in no time...

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From: Sue Brinsko
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] For Sue.
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Thanks all, it seemed to me that the prefix "dis' would do the same thing to
the word 'chuffed' that it does to the word "pleasure', for example. Slang
doesn't always follow the same rules as other grammer, tho', so I was
curious. thanks a bunch. Sue B

On 11/2/07, Roger Grier wrote:
>
> Hi Sue,
>
> No, never heard of 'Dischuffed'.
>
> Opposite to being 'Chuffed' would be bloody annoyed or something similar.
>
> O.K. mush?

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From: Sue Brinsko
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] OT British slang
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007

Yes, John, English is my first language... but midwestern US English, not
British English.English varies regionally even in our huge
country.....especially the slang, since that evolves more quickly than
the formal language. It varies even more "across the water". When you
visited the US did you never notice this difference? Sue B

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] OT British slang
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007

Geoff,
An ancient Brit, you? I can beat that! As a palaeontologist I was once sent an email by a student who apparently didn't know my name. It opened "Dear fossil man . . ". To this day I don't know whether the emphasis was on fossil or man.
As for the word "chuffed", it is ceratinly still in use up 'ere in't north but I have never heard the word 'dischuffed'.
Incidentally, in the 24 vol Oxford English Dictionary there are numerous references (mainly nouns) to 'chuff' but nearly all are to do with aspects of animals. In my edition the slang or verb to be 'chuffed' isn't listed but by implication, to swell with pride as when someone adopts a proud stance would fit. Ee lad, we're all dead chuffed to be livin' up 'ere in't rural rustic north wher'th'orchids still bloom in't summer.
John

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Answers.
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007

Mornin' all,

And yet another great day here, cloudless sky at the moment.

What Tony and Peter said about the fans, humidity, temperature is of course completely correct.........for their climate and the way that they grow their orchids. But, of course, it is so different to how I grow mine, and for that matter it is different or the same as thousands of us 'Orchid Nuts' the world over.

But isn't it so nice to hear of the differences and be able to help people who are just starting out on this so captivating hobby.

My greenhouse never has any windows or top vents open..........just the door.

And now on to Geoff's statement that he has not heard of 'chuffed' since his National Service days. As 'chuffed' and 'mush' are words that I have used since a lad, and still do, I suspect that they are local words.

So Tony lives in Perth, Australia &**(*^&^$^(*_)_)(_ Yes Tony, I am sure I will remember now. And as for your bracketed words: [ Unless you have a REALLY big one ] well mate, we had better say no more on the subject. Nothing like a bit of humour to help the world roll along.

John, I remember some things better than others, [don't ask me where Tony lives] but I do remember the moth that Darwin spoke of. He did die before it was found and the man that found it was named Morgan, and the moth was named [excuse my spelling] Xanthopan Morgani praedicta.

Regards, Rocky.

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: New bloomers.
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007

Afternoon all,

Two photos of my latest buys from 'Azienda Agricola'.

First one is named: SLC. Little Lemon Drops x Golden Acclaim. Four blooms in all.

Second one is: C. Olark Henon "Carl". Two flowers open, and another spike with two buds yet to open.

Third photo is of a 'Cheepie'. Four flower spikes, and I do like it, but, I could do with a name for it. As we all know, it most probably came from Holland and it is one of those crosses that have sometimes different names for a slight difference in flower markings, but if someone could suggest a name I would be pleased to write out a label for it.

Kind regards, Rocky.

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From: Andy
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] New bloomers.
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007

NIce plants Rocky and good pics too. The unknown looks like a wilsonara or an Odontioda − could it be O Stirbic. There are several pics of this on the net and yours is no more different from them than they are from each other.

Andy

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From: Andy
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] New bloomers.
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007

By the way Rocky − I think the C Olark Henon is a mislabelling of C Clark Herman

Andy

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From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Chuffed
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007

Tonight's repeat of Porridge had Fletcher (Ronnie Barker ) being '' dischuffed '' For non UK ers it is a TV serial.
Regards

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: What's in a name !!!
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007

Mornin' Andy,

And once again it looks as if we are going to have yet another lovely day.

Well mate, what can I say..........you sure have come up trumps with both of those names, but what surprises me and makes me wonder is how you came to know about the name of the Cattleya, well done 'Mr. Holmes'.

The printed label from our mutual Italian friends which said, C. Olark Henan 'Carl'. Now how did it ever get misinterpreted????? Especially as it was awarded an AM/AOS.

Anyway Andy, thanks for that and I will now re-scribe the label. Also scribe another one for the 'Stirbic'.

Just shows how knowledgeable our members are and the information that turns up.

Have a nice day, Rocky.

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] New bloomers.and good practise in orchid naming
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007

Hi All,
Orchid Talk seems to be used more and more as a means of trying to get identification or names for plants without labels. It occurs to me that when a plant picture is shown on the forum and various members express opinions as to its probable identity, the owner may well accept the most plausible name and label up his/her plant. At this stage no harm is done but, if the plant is passed on, with the name, the identification may be reasonably assumed to be authoritative whereas, in reality, it is but a suggestion.

I am aware of one former member of the group who has resigned in disgust of this casual practise of not rigorously identifying and naming plants. It is not unknown for plants, so labelled, to be 'rumbled' only when displayed and judged in shows. Whatever one thinks of show judging, it is a serious attempt to draw comparisons between growers' skills. It becomes nonsensical if there is doubt about the identity of whatever is being displayed.

In a formal scientific environment, a tentative, possible but unproven identification would be prefixed with cf. which means (approximately) 'compare with', or 'see xxxxxxxx' and make your own judgement. Its use implies that an identification on essential diagnostic features has, perhaps, not been made but that the plant looks very much like xxxxxxx in someone's opinion.

May I suggest that members write their labels in this way if identification is made from an online suggestion? This would avoid errors and misidentifications getting 'cast in concrete' and possibly confusing the future owners of such casually named orchids?

After all, the credibility of a forum like this should depend on a serious attitude to orchid names. Also, although it is impressive to have a tidily and completely labelled-up collection, a collection that is clearly honestly labelled (complete with uncertainties) carries more credibility!

John

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From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Fertiliser
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007

I know this has been commented on for years and will continue to be a contentious subject but −
Since I started growing orchids, mainly Lycastineae, I have used Tomorite. For one disasterous year I used a high nitrogen feed and got fantastic leaves that fell over as there were no pseudo bulbs. This meant one year without flowers.
A litre bottle of Orchid Focus − Bloom -came into my possesion and for the last 3 months I have used it on all my orchids. The instructions say it does not induce flowering but gives better blooms.
I have the feeling that the pseudo bulbshave grown faster and larger since I started using this fertiliser − not scientific I know but is there a scientest on the list that can state if a pseudo bulb is vegative growth and would a higher potassium fertiliser speed up its development.
Regards from a dull but dry Devon. Dennis

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From: Barbara Larimer
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chuffed
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007

Ahh, to get a good serial from the UK is a little slice of heaven. American
TV has become unwatchable in the main. Oh sure, we had our heyday with
Dallas, Dynasty, and the more recent Sopranos, but BBC has gone on to
provide gem after gem. Who can forget East Enders, The Monarch of the Glen,
As Time Goes By, Ballykissangel? And then there's Taggart, Midsomer
Murders... There are countless more. All I can get here is BBC-America
which lacks any real substance or resemblance- speaking of being
"dischuffed"!! (I can't remember another I liked.. Was it "Emmerdale
Farm"?) All marvelous at capturing a slice of life − great
characterizations.

Back to orchids, and I was getting back to orchids.. A&E created a series
in 2001-2002 (maybe 20 episodes) a treatment of the Nero Wolfe novels which
was quite enjoyable − true to setting, terrific soundtrack and Wolfe's
obsession with orchids ever present. His greenhouse is enormous and
occupies the roof of his brownstone in New York City. Wouldn't that be
fabulous?

I've got one about to bloom − Sort of like Charlie Brown's Christmas tree -
straggly, not a leaf, looks like a throw away but blooms the most
magnificent purple I have ever seen. I will try to capture it in a photo
when it opens. You just never know...

Barbara

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From: Andy
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: some current bloomers
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007

Here's a few photos of some of my current plants out.

Dendrobium victoria-reginae. I bought this at the BOGA Fayre in August as
a young plant so I am pleased to see a couple of flowers on it. It is a
crossing of 2 selected blue clones and is indeed a very good colour. I am
looking forward to growing it on to a sizeable plant.

Vascostylis Veerasawas White This opened with rather poor shaped flowers
but it has matured nicely. I was expecting more white and less of the other
colours − does any one else know this one?

BLC Young Kong Orchis This flowers like clockwork at this time of year −
huge flowers over 15 cms (6 inches). It is a bit OTT but I do rather like
it.

BLC Golden Phoenix Orange. Another reliable bloomer − it really is this
vibrant. Who'd think to put this combination of colours together?

Masdevallia strobelii I am very pleased with this − it is first flowering
of this since I got it 6 months ago. Also it is on a mount and I am just
starting to experiment with this way of growing. It certainly looks better
with these little titchy ones and I like the idea of seldom needing to
disturb them. It is taking a bit of adjustment both for me and those around
me as I am away regularly. As I get more interested in these tiny ones I
think I am going to need − well want − a camera that will do them justice.
The close up is the best I can do for now to show these hairs.

Andy

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From: Andy
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Den fimbriatum oculatum
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007

Dendrobium fimbriatum

I have had this for a few years and grown a magnificent plant − about 15 or
so new canes at nearly a meter long. It flowers every year but never many
racemes at once. Any tips for getting the best of this plant?

Andy

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From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] New bloomers.and good practise in orchid naming
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007

John makes a very valid point here. Although suggested names are offered in
good faith (I trust!) they can only be suggestions when a flower is viewed
on a screen. Labelling a plant on the basis of a guess is most definitely
not good practice.

On 04 Nov, John Stanley wrote:
> Hi All,

> Orchid Talk seems to be used more and more as a means of trying to get
> identification or names for plants without labels. It occurs to me that
> when a plant picture is shown on the forum and various members express
> opinions as to its probable identity, the owner may well accept the most
> plausible name and label up his/her plant. At this stage no harm is done
> but, if the plant is passed on, with the name, the identification may be
> reasonably assumed to be authoritative whereas, in reality, it is but a
> suggestion...

--

Tricia

If it wasn't for the last minute, nothing would get done.

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From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Den fimbriatum oculatum
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

I'm trying chilling....
Geoff

"Andy" wrote on Sunday, November 04:

> Dendrobium fimbriatum
>
> I have had this for a few years and grown a magnificent plant − about 15
> or so new canes at nearly a meter long. It flowers every year but never
> many racemes at once. Any tips for getting the best of this plant?

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From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] some current bloomers
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

Your white Vasco is splendid − but absolutely pure white flowers in either
Vandas (pure) or hybrids from Vanda, are like hen's teeth.
Visiting nurseries in Thailand I have been asked US$10,000 for a nearly all
white Asco , in the days when ordinary blue and red ones in flower were US$
3-5.
Almost invariably there is some spotting or some yellow or some green. The
reason is simple ; there is no pure white (Vanda) species to breed from −
the best you get is V.sanderiana alba − which has yellow brown patches over
most of the two lower sepals ( alba just means that the red coloration has
gone, the rest remains) . And of course V.coerulea alba − that is a much
better white, but a much rare plant, and I think doe not breed true ,
anyway.
I think there are two ways of getting an alba , one is a lack of pigment,
and the other is a lack of a whole layer of the pigmented cells , but I am
into a genetic area where I am only speculating here.

Rhyncostylis of course does have excellent virtually pure white
possibilities , from the R. gigantea ( etc) parents − but mix it witht eh
other genera used in the multigenetric crosses, and the answers are
different − most of the time (I suppose) − maybe pure white do exist, but
they certainly have not been meristemmed and offered within my , no doubt,
incomplete knowledge. When they are, I'm a buyer too !

geoff

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From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] New bloomers.and good practise in orchid naming
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

I am very cynical of the possibility of a plant being correctly identified
simply because it is put in front of orchid judges at a show ; I have rarely
found unanimity , and ferquently found gross ignorance.

IMHO no one can name a hybrid with certainty. No doubt some are easier to
guess at than others ( e.g. Cymbidium Jester Mavourneen). Others are
virtually impossible.(White cattleyas ! )

Most experienced growers can name species with reasonable accuracy if ( and
this is a very big if ) they are working within the area of their actual
experience and expertise. But tell me who is an expert at Pleurothallids and
Cattleyas and Disas and Cymbidiums .... and I could go on. ( the word
iis underlined everywhere, in that last sentence ) .
I think you would find that if you discussed this with the members of the
RHS Orchid Committee, and all the regular attenders there are very
experienced, beyond your average orchid judge , very few of them would
claim that kind of all inclusive expertise − and as for the judges at a
local Orchid Show , I guess it would not be hard to put a species before
them which they had never seen before .....I frequently do !

Geoff

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From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Den fimbriatum oculatum
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

PS it worked last year − more than a dozen sprays all at the same time, but
earlier than I wanted, in fact mostly out whilst I was away. This year most
of my dendrobes are in what Access Frames sell as a "tall wall greenhouse" −
like a cold frame, but about 6 ft high , 6ft long and two ft deep , It is
of course , predictably, useless for anything in the summer months −
temperatures actually melt the thermometer ( slight exaggeration maybe) but
quite good in the winter − although even then , unless I remember to go out
and slide panes to ventilate, it is easily up to 30 deg on a sunny day. I
have a small heater in it, and last night the temp. was 11 deg C inside, and
2 deg outside .
It did go down to about 3 one night before I remembered to switch the heater
on ( I wondered why it was so cold ! ) but as it was only one night ( I
think) then maybe minimal harm....
I'm leaving them in this spot until towards Xmas. Last year my dendrobes had
5 or 6 weeks outside, returning in the first part of November , so anything
which does actually survive and goes on to flower, will be say 6 weeks
later. We'll see.

geoff

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From: Andy
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] New bloomers.and good practise in orchid naming
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

I don't know what the "more and more" refers to but I think asking for possible name suggestions is a fine use of this forum. It is not formal and it certainly isn't scientific − sometimes, (more and more?), it's not even about orchids!

The same restricted range of meristemmed plants seem to be available around the world and the common ones sold unlabelled in lots of places are not that difficult to identify. A name suggestion can help someone at least know where to start looking.

For most people I suspect this is a fun and engaging hobby and if a plant is mislabelled it is not the end of the world. I certainly doubt that it would significantly alter the course of botanical or horticultural knowledge!

I have frequently bought mislabelled plants, or with misspelled labels, from professional growers, who have presumably sold many of them, and I certainly have seen judges award plants that were misidentified. I also have enough knowledge to spot the errors at least some of the time. I wouldn't however breed from dubiously named plants, whatever their source, and I suspect that is the case for most "serious" amateurs.

The former member would probably have been more effective to have stayed and argued his or her case: I don't see how withdrawing from the debate helps.

I am not against rigour in naming but I am against prescribing how someone else should engage with their hobby.

Andy

John Stanley wrote on Sunday, November 04:

> Orchid Talk seems to be used more and more as a means of trying to get
> identification or names for plants without labels...

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From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Roots
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

At the end of June rhis year I showed a picture of three paph. bits with no roots as in the first attachment. The left hand one was planted upside down on a moss envelope covered by moss. The centre one was planted in wet perlite. The right hand one was dipped in Bio Roota and planted in wet perlite.
The second attachment shows the roots now four months later. The left hand Paph has a 5 cm (2in) root having been upside down. The centre one has no roots and the right hand one has a 1 cm root pointing to the camera.
When I read about upside down planting I could not believe it ( shades of Victor Meldrew ) . The one with the root is now planted in a bark/perlite/moss mix and the other two are upside down hanging, as the last, in my under bench spray system.
Regards from an overcast but dry Devon. Dennis

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From: Lynda Coles
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Roots
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

Dennis,

It may have been the moss v wet perlite/wet perlite+bio-roota and not the fact that the plant was upside down that gave you success (i.e the moss was the successful contributing factor, not the fact that the plant was inverted) You have changed the variables and confounded your experiment.

regards,
Lynda

Dennis Read wrote on Monday, 5 November, 2007:

> At the end of June rhis year I showed a picture of three paph. bits with
> no roots as in the first attachment. The left hand one was planted upside
> down on a moss envelope covered by moss. The centre one was planted in
> wet perlite. The right hand one was dipped in Bio Roota and planted in
> wet perlite. The second attachment shows the roots now four months later.
> The left hand Paph has a 5 cm (2in) root having been upside down. The
> centre one has no roots and the right hand one has a 1 cm root pointing
> to the camera. When I read about upside down planting I could not believe
> it ( shades of Victor Meldrew ) . The one with the root is now planted in
> a bark/perlite/moss mix and the other two are upside down hanging, as the
> last, in my under bench spray system.
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From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Roots
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

Good comment but they had sat for a year in wet moss. That is why I used other methods. The Roota compound also worked to a lesser degree. Regards Dennis

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From:
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Roots
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

i know it works i have done it with vandas and phals and others and it seems
to work fast
with plenty of humidity all thanks to david grove ,i am glad it worked for
you
tom

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Fertilisers.
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

Hi there Dennis,

No sun here today, quite dull, and again we have virtually no wind. I have not known several weeks to be like this for a very long time, strange.

On to your fertiliser, Orchid Focus − Bloom.

Can you please tell us the make up of this fertiliser please, i.e. the Nitrogen/Phosphate/Potash per centages.

I suppose I could look it up on the Internet, but if it comes from you, could your please tell us what measures the bottle tells people to use. And who makes it.

Many thanks, Rocky.

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Andy's bloomers.
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

Hi Andy,

Some very nice flowers to have out at this time of the year.

It just goes to show that 'One Persons Meat is another Persons poison', as I do not like your BLC Young Kong Orchis. Don't think that the two petals are big enough and there is too much gap below their bottom edge, and I don't like the white streaks in the bottom of the lip.

As for that BLC Golden Phoenix 'Orange', that is a cracker.

Maybe another swap might be on the cards in the future.

As to getting another camera..........hang on a minute mate.

My camera is a Canon Ixus. My model number is 55 and of course there is now a 60 or even beyond that. Of course the newer models do just about the same as the others but they have a few extra 'Bells, whistles and levers' that are just there to infulence people.

With the macro feature turned on I can get very close, so maybe if you have a look at this type of camera you will be pleasantly surprised at what it can do, and the price.

Kind regards, Rocky.

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: How very true.
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

Hi Geoff,

I very much liked what you said:

I think you would find that if you discussed this with the members of the
RHS Orchid Committee, and all the regular attenders there are very
experienced, beyond your average orchid judge , very few of them would
claim that kind of all inclusive expertise − and as for the judges at a
local Orchid Show , I guess it would not be hard to put a species before
them which they had never seen before .....I frequently do !

This all leads me to ask this question. If an orchid was on a Show Table and was being judged, with the incorrect label, would the plant be downgraded through no fault of the owner?

Not an easy question to answer, but I do often see this and I know that the owner has done their best.

Regards, Rocky.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lynda Coles
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] New bloomers.and good practise in orchid naming
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

I was once an accredited orchid judge and at that time unidentified (lost-label) plants were judged on their merit on the day in terms of growth, substance, number of blooms etc. etc. The only factor that could not be brought to bear in these cases was the issue of growers skill, that is to say if a plant which was known to be difficult to successfully grow and flower were displayed, then some credit in points would be given for this,even if the plant did not look pristine. No label meant that this could not be done, no label also means, of course that a given plant/clone/sib could not be given points accordingly because there would be no opportunity to compare it with others of its kind. At one time a 'lost-label' plant would not be judged, at least in the society that I belonged to. Not having a name for a plant makes it very difficult for the orchid judges...but does it matter if your plant does not have a name and suffers pointswise if you put it on
the judging tables? One would have to ask 'for whom do you grow orchids...the judges or yourself? Anonimity has no bearing on whether one finds a particular plant interesting and worthy of growing.
The only downside of having lost a label is that anyone interested in breeding would be extremely ill-advised to use an anonymous plant as a parent.

Also, the very concept of 'Judging' an item in order to decide that one of a kind is better than another be it plant,dog,cow,horse etc.etc. also introduces the idea of personal preference (despite claims of judge impartiality) and names or lack of them are of minimal importance here.

regards,
Lynda

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Paph experiments.
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

Hi there Dennis,

I do like to here and see that people are not afraid to experiment with their orchids.

As to the upside down experiment. I wonder if it is something to do with the plant reaching out for light?????

You may remember that I think I have cracked it with my five Paphs, which are all potted in my mix that is proving to be a big success.

Three parts, Vermiculite
Two parts, Rough potting mix
Two parts, Grit.

May I ask our resident Mineral Man, John to comment on the difference between Vermiculite and Perlite. I for one like Vermiculite so much better.

Regards, Rocky.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] New bloomers.and good practise in orchid naming
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

Hi Andy,
I'm sorry if my suggestion seemed high handed, pompus or 'superior' in any way. I was trying to be helpful rather than to prescribe how anyone should conduct their hobby. Your arguments against a fuss over hybrids I accept but then, I'm not passionate about the results from hybridising although many amateurs are. It is interesting to me to see how the process can take place even between widely(?) different genera but I have zero expertise in that department.

I agree entirely with your second and third paragraphs but you make 'my' point in the fourth. The fact is, as with most things biological growers, specialists, even experts are not divided into identifiable groups with a firm line; there are expert growers who seem not to give a damn for nomenclatural accuracy and there are academic specialists who couldn't grow dandelions. Most of us are somewhere between.

All I was trying to do was suggest that it might a good idea to record, on the label, whether or not the orchid has been recognised or rigorously identified. I don't think the two are the same. I would be the last person to prescibe or proscribe how others label plants but, without wishing to insult members, I'd be surprised if there aren't a few of us who weren't aware that a simple 'cf' could render their tentative identifications more transparently honest!

I too have bought mis- or even un-labelled plants. I am not suggesting that the course of botanical knowledge would be smoothed by my indulging in weeks of research to correct that (even if I had the expertise). What I am suggesting is that hobbyists might be more justifiably proud of a collection in which they could be more certain of the degree of accuracy of their labels. Similarly, they might feel that they had less 'egg on their faces' on occasions where their labels are corrected.

My reference to 'more and more' is simply that I gain the impression (not based on any statistical analysis!) that the forum is being used increasingly frequently for solving such queries. And indeed,why not? Anything that gets us all sharing experience and knowledge is good! (I'll share my ignorance with the best).

As for the course of science, that's another matter that doesn't often depend on amateur growers. As for the credibility of hobbyists, I think their reputation (at least individually) would be enhanced. But certainly no compulsion. And certainly no offence or insult intended! I suspect we're really batting for the same side!
Maybe Tricia will referee if not!
Cheers
John

Andy wrote:

> I don't know what the "more and more" refers to but I think asking for
> possible name suggestions is a fine use of this forum. It is not
> formal and it certainly isn't scientific − sometimes, (more and more?),
> it's not even about orchids!

> The same restricted range of meristemmed plants seem to be available
> around the world and the common ones sold unlabelled in lots of places
> are not that difficult to identify. A name suggestion can help someone
> at least know where to start looking.

> For most people I suspect this is a fun and engaging hobby and if a
> plant is mislabelled it is not the end of the world. I certainly doubt
> that it would significantly alter the course of botanical or
> horticultural knowledge!

> I have frequently bought mislabelled plants, or with misspelled
> labels, from professional growers, who have presumably sold many of
> them, and I certainly have seen judges award plants that were
> misidentified. I also have enough knowledge to spot the errors at
> least some of the time. I wouldn't however breed from dubiously named
> plants, whatever their source, and I suspect that is the case for most
> "serious" amateurs.

> The former member would probably have been more effective to have
> stayed and argued his or her case: I don't see how withdrawing from the
> debate helps.

> I am not against rigour in naming but I am against prescribing how
> someone else should engage with their hobby. Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] New bloomers.and good practise in orchid naming
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

Hi Geoff and members,
This is precisely why I suggested that 'cf' puts labelled plants on a more
honest standing than is usually apparent. But as with other groups, there
are judges and judges. There may well be some who would regard "cf.
Cymbidium Jester Mavoureen" as an inadequate label but who wouldn't baulk at
a more confidently written (but equally tentative) one. I was thinking more
in terms of species where there are some specialists who are also judges who
are also pretty good in their field.

As for Pleurothallids . . .; Steve Manning?

But doesn't all this support my suggestion for 'cf' honesty?
John

"Geoff Hands" wrote on Monday, November 05:

>I am very cynical of the possibility of a plant being correctly identified
>simply because it is put in front of orchid judges at a show ; I have
>rarely found unanimity , and ferquently found gross ignorance...

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] New bloomers.and good practise in orchid naming
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

You are right Andy − my generalisation that no-one can name a hybrid with certainty does not apply to things which have been propagated by meristemming, although of course a few are very similar to one another.
geoff

Andy wrote:

> I don't know what the "more and more" refers to but I think asking for
> possible name suggestions is a fine use of this forum. It is not
> formal and it certainly isn't scientific − sometimes, (more and more?),
> it's not even about orchids!

> The same restricted range of meristemmed plants seem to be available
> around the world and the common ones sold unlabelled in lots of places
> are not that difficult to identify. A name suggestion can help someone
> at least know where to start looking.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Geoff Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] New bloomers.and good practise in orchid naming
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

Very good Lynda.

I was making the point that Judges could not -you are making the point that
in your experience Judges do not even try .

There are of course many different kinds of orchid judge − ones "trained" in
the B.O.C system in UK , " old Bill who was a founder member and always
judges our plants " and so on. The US system − meaning AOS is far more
rigorous.

The RHS committee is a different thing altogether − without a book of rules
as far as I can see or know . In fact some years ago when I got quite
steamed up about its perceived faults I wrote an article about it, but to
check my facts first , I wrote to it's chairman and asked for the criteria
in giving awards , and di it have any kind of mission statement ( actually I
din't say that − "mission statement" was a political invention after I
wrote − it's that long ago...
I never did get an answer.
But although they may be considered the ultimate authority in UK at least ,
they are not orchid judges in the same sense of the words as we are using.

geoff

"Lynda Coles" wrote:

> I was once an accredited orchid judge ....

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Judging and displaying.
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

Hi Lynda,

I started to read what you said, but after looking at the peculiar 'display' of the words etc. etc. I just turned off.

I ask you this question, what type of 'programme' or whatever do you use?????

It sure does not come over well at all. Would you like some help?

Kindest regards, Rocky.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Labeling and Judging.
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

Hi all,

I think that 'Labelling and 'Judging' should be put into two distinct categories/sections or whatever.

1. When they both are used in a large Orchid Show, and,
2. When they are used in a small Orchid Society Show.

In the second case it is all about the ordinary hobbyist being so proud to put his or her plant on the table, whether it has got a label or not. And at such a Society Show, whoever judges the plants should of course be trying to ENCOURAGE people.

And in such a show, if the label is not written correctly, or even it is completely wrong, there is always time to ENCOURAGE the exhibitor to change it, and in doing so the competitor will learn something to their advantage.

Question for you now Lynda, please.

In a small Society Show would you expect the Judges to down mark a plant for the state of the pot, or do you mark just the plant?

Kind regards, Rocky.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tony Watkinson
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] some current bloomers
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007

I will grant that this is not a pure Alba, but very close. Only recently
discovered in the Philippines.

Vanda javierae. Not the worlds greatest shape either.

No, not mine unfortunately.

Tony

"Geoff Hands" wrote:

> Your white Vasco is splendid − but absolutely pure white flowers in either
> Vandas (pure) or hybrids from Vanda, are like hen's teeth.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: Labelling − judging − competition − amateurism and expertise
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

Hi everyone,
The good news seems to be that my suggestion of using 'cf' to indicate 'possibly' or 'similar to' etc. on a plant label has initiated such a strong response in the OT forum.
Certainly not a lead balloon this one!

The bad news (for me) is that what I naively thought was a good idea that offered a compromise between no-label-at-all and a wrong-label seems to be seen as a damper on a fun hobby. In so many other hobbies, participants can be one-up on professionals because of the time and energy they are able to devote! Am I really being told that amateur orchid growers aren't serious in the pursuit of their interest? I don't think those in this forum with whom I've corresponded fit such a category.

I find it most odd that amongst a group of folks that I regard as experts motivated in their field (either growers or those with specialist knowledge in various aspects of orchids) or beginners seeking help to become more expert, there seems to be mainly hostility to the idea that we should try to be honest with ourselves and our plant labels! Is it really such a big deal?

Certainly, I would not consider myself expert enough to 'prescribe' what hobbyists do and equally certain is my appreciation that there are many people (my wife is one) who aren't interested in the finer details of nomenclature but who gain tremendous satisfaction from their skills at growing and flowering these plants in less than ideal conditions.

However, as hobbyists (and that is what I am ) we can hardly expect professionals to spend time helping us along our way if we insist on (a) ridiculing their work as taxonomists through a lack of understanding what they do and (b) treating plant identities in a casual way as if it doesn't really matter.

In my tiny mind I was trying to give we amateur growers/ collectors/students of orchids more credibilty through a kind of honesty in what we do. I was not suggesting that anyone deliberately misnames plants to deceive or that anyone's hobby should be ruined by a blind acceptance of my suggestion of they are happy as they are.

However, never having been 'fired up' with the competetive side of orchid displaying (although,every month and every show I get a warm feeling if I record the successes of 'my' O.Soc. in our Newsletter) I am now tempted to wonder what the point of training judges is if not to give them a fighting chance of knowing what it is that they're judging! Fortunately, the qualified judges I know, at least give the impression of a degree of expertise that would inhibit me from aspiring to their ranks!

From what has been said, it seems to me that the only valid judgement is that of "Best plant in the show" which (correct me if I'm wrong!) is not an objective judgement at all but one in which we could all be on the jury.

I hope that the reality of opinion is somewhere between the polarised views of the last few days. Otherwise, what is the point in having a forum at all if not to improve our knowledge and good practise?

John

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lynda Coles
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Judging and displaying.
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

Hi Rocky,

Yes it was all a bit weird. I certainly do not know what has happened between my computer and yours. I use the regular microsoft programmes (microsoft), through the yahoo portal for orchid talk. I used the 'reply' function (as recently requested) to keep the thread. Never had a plroblem like that before, not as far as I know anyway. My previous posts have appeared as intended and as sent. Really no idea. It will be of interest to see what happens to this message. I will re-post as a cut & paste if others have had the same problem and wish to read my comments. In the meantime I have sent a copy to you at your private email address...hope that this is acceptable to you....and, indeed, that it is intact when it reaches you.
Naturally, if you know what has caused the peculiar display I would be pleased to know.

regards
Lynda

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lynda Coles
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Labeling and Judging.
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

Ah... the pot.. technically you are judging the plant, not what it is growing in. That's the way I always looked at it. It is nice to see a well presented plant, neatly tied, and trimmed etc and a pity if the pot (if it is plastic) is not similarly treated, clean and polished,,,,it all adds to the display of course. However, if the plant is in a clay pot, unless you slip it into a new plastic one for the presentation, it is difficult to make presentable. A pristine plant in a grubby pot is a shame but, as I said, I always considered I was judging the plant, not the container it was growing in and, personally, would not 'down-point' any plant for a grubby pot. I would probably have made a gentle comment to the members at 'judges question time'. In reality, most displays at shows seek to hide or disguise the pots and the plants are awarded, or not, on their merit at that time. At orchid shows judges were not allowed to lift the plants from the display and
it was up to the exhibitor to place any plant they felt was worth consideration in a prominent position, thus the pot was usually not visible.
It is worth remembering that orchid societies are made up of those interested in orchids, many are new growers and people generally join societies of any sort to learn as well as to feed their interest. Being harsh about a grubby pot is counterproductive, feeling are easily hurt but not so easily mended........that member may never bring another plant to a table show. Whilst I agree that a table show is the display of a single plant and the owner should take trouble to display it at its best, including the pot (which will detract from the overall impression), judges at the meetings are acting as educators and should not verbally 'beat-up' an exhibiting member because of a grubby pot, it is in the interest of everyone that table show exhibits are many and varied...this may be the only place that some of the members will see a variety of orchids in bloom. I accept also that exhibiting an orchid in this way is somewhat artificial.

As to the RHS judging methods and any guidelines they may have (if any) I was always given to understand that, unless they were considering a cultural award, they only judged the flower/s...not the plant, (do they not also consider cut stems?). In theory awarded plants could leave something to be desired with regard to the business end (the bulbs, leaves etc.).

Hope this message appears as written.
regards, Lynda

Roger Grier wrote:

> Question for you now Lynda, please.
>
> In a small Society Show would you expect the Judges to down mark a plant
> for the state of the pot, or do you mark just the plant?

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Labelling − judging − competition − amateurism and expertise
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

I do like the Paph Society system- plants are divided into separate classes.
Every member attending the show ( meeting) gets one vote in each class, and
one vote for "best in show" . This is called "appreciation judging".

It was interesting to see over the maybe 10 years when I was a very regular
attender − and exhibitor − that the results were hardly any different from
those which might have been achieved by complex "pointing " systems , known
as show-bench judging , except in one very important area − no one could
possibly argue with the judges or the results..!

Of course it wouldn't do (?) for a show where the public paid to enter (?)
but I do recommend it for the Society meetings Show table − I introduced it
thus when I ran Cotswold Society , with every success. Of course with a
small table ( small Society) you don't need many classes − we used to have
just three − larger flowered species, ditto hybrids, and all small flowered
things. But feel free to copy and amend as you wish.

geoff

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] some current bloomers
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

That's an interesting one − new to me. Looks very much like Papiolanthe (
syn V.teres) or some of the Aerides with terete leaves − I bought a couple
of new to me species of that kind last year but have not flowered them yet.(
maybe they are all Papiolanthe nowadays ! )

Geoff

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: nancy
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Labelling − judging − competition − amateurism and expertise
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

Hi John and other orchid fans -
This discussion has been very interesting, and it is
an issue that we've all had to deal with. When my
children were smaller, I was often presented with a
pile of broken pots, broken plants and loose tags. If
there were photos, or the plant was very distinctive,
the tags/plants were reuinted.
Even so, I have received plants from reputable
nurseries that proved to be mis-labeled; tags have
faded beyond deciphering, etc.
A few years ago I got a division at one of our swaps;
for my own convenience, I added 'from Rosie' to the
name on the tag, so I'd remember where it came from
and what it looked like. FF to last year, after I'd
also swapped a piece of the same plant later on, where
I see what looks suspiciously like this plant with the
name C. Whatever 'Rosie' attached to it − so, you just
never know!
I could have it somewhat muddled, but I think that AOS
judging says that unlabeled, NOID, or questionable ID
plants are eligible at shows for 'Ribbon Judging' and
trophies − these are for "best" flower, plant,
cultivation, etc. To be considered for an AOS award,
the plant must be identified with its own name, and
the parents listed. I think all must be 'registered'
with the AOS, which can be a problem if, ex., my
friend hybridizes, gives away lots of seedlings with
his/her chosen name, but never registers the cross.
FWIW, I like your idea of using 'cf' − but I think
that many times we have plants with questionable IDs,
but aren't even aware of it.
Regards − Nancy in south Louisiana

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Judging and Displaying.
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

First to Lynda,

Yes Lynda your message came through perfectly, but I haven't a clue as to why it came like that before.

This Judging and Displaying is like the can of proverbial worms.

However, I have already read some extremely interesting comments and wonder if all of us could put in our five-penneth and come up with a set of not perhaps rules, but guidance which may be adopted by some of Orchid Societies the world over.

Geoff spoke of the judging of just the flowers, and I agree with him that the whole plant must be looked at.

Then there was Nancy's interesting comments on the 'Label'.

Lynda said that she always liked to see a nice clean pot, and yes I agree to some point, but thankfully she said that she would not downmark a plant for being a 'soiled' clay pot. I well remember a photo in the A.O.S. Journal of a Cattleya Show held in Japan. Most of the clay pots were covered in some type of moss.

To end..........what a fascinating subject..........and I often here people say that they are bored, hell, there's not enough hours in the day.

Regards, Rocky.

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From: Andy
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Den fimbriatum oculatum
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

Thanks Geoff

Currently I have it bright, cool and dryish − certainly no feed − hopefully
one of these will do the trick.

I don't put it out of the orchidhouse in the summer. I do put all the
nobile types and several other things out in my version of a bush house. It
is a frame with a poycarbonate roof and otherwise "glazed" only with shade
cloth. I have plants in it from May-ish until I panic in October and clear
it out. Seems to work well but this year I forgot to put the copper slug
tape round it and of course soon got a reminder !

Andy

"Geoff Hands" wrote on Monday, November 05:

> PS it worked last year − more than a dozen sprays all at the same time,
> but earlier than I wanted, in fact mostly out whilst I was away. This year
> most of my dendrobes are in what Access Frames sell as a "tall wall
> greenhouse" − like a cold frame, but about 6 ft high , 6ft long and two ft
> deep.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Andy
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Roots
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

Very interesting Dennis. That's quite a difference in such a short time − I will try it if I have a difficult plant.

Andy

Dennis Read wrote on Monday, November 05:

> At the end of June rhis year I showed a picture of three paph. bits
> with no roots as in the first attachment. The left hand one was planted
> upside down on a moss envelope covered by moss. The centre one was
> planted in wet perlite. The right hand one was dipped in Bio Roota and
> planted in wet perlite.

> The second attachment shows the roots now four months later. The left
> hand Paph has a 5 cm (2in) root having been upside down. The centre one
> has no roots and the right hand one has a 1 cm root pointing to the
> camera.

> When I read about upside down planting I could not believe it ( shades
> of Victor Meldrew ) . The one with the root is now planted in a
> bark/perlite/moss mix and the other two are upside down hanging, as the
> last, in my under bench spray system.

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From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Fertilisers.
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

Roger, I thought this would be easy − just look at the label. No N/P/K value is given but it gives an analysis by %w/v.
Nitrogen- nitrate 1.85 ; Nitrogen-amoniacal 0 ; Total N 1.85
Phosphorus P − 1.08
Potassium K − 2.19
But there are two unusual extras
Calcium − 1.4 and Humic and Fulvic Acids − 0.25
This made me look at Tomorite N/P/K of 4 − 4.5 − 8 giving N of 4.0 ; P of 2.0 and K of 6.6. life is complex is it not.
Regards Dennis

"Roger Grier" wrote:

> On to your fertiliser, Orchid Focus − Bloom.

> Can you please tell us the make up of this fertiliser please, i.e. the
> Nitrogen/Phosphate/Potash per centages.

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Andy
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Andy's bloomers.
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

Hi Roger

I have an Ixus 7.5 which I do like a lot. In fact I first took notice of this range on your recommendation a couple of years(?) ago. I use it when travelling as it is so light and small. Most of the pics I show on the net are from my Canon Coolpix.

I don't thingk either give a good enough depth of field on the macro setting − or maybe I just don't know how to use them to their best advantage!

Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: orchid names
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

It does occur to me to suggest that if a name is proposed and generally
accepted here , there is at least as good a chance of it being correct as
there would be from reading the label supplied with the plant !

No-one ever gets the DNA checked before selling a plant . Dealers get it
wrong, and anyone can make a mistake.

Just a couple of examples from my own experience.

A certain west country nursery imported paphs from the wild some years ago
saying " CITES is coming − your last chance."

I bought Paph randsii − which is found wild in certain islands of the
Phillipines , and it turned out to be P. callosum − found a thousand miles
away.. The collector could not have been mistaken, but error occurred
somewhere !

A flask of Paph sanderianum produced seedlings which started to look odd
once big enough to be examined in this respect − none have yet flowered − I
think they may be a Diaphananthe species .

geoff

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Cyril Whalley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Warm or cool
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

Hi Evereyone.
Have just bought a Colmanara Jungle Monarch, can any of you help as to light
and warmth required? I have one south facing warm window and one cool north
window supplemented by a mercury grow light. Geoff the dendrobium keiki you
gave me seems to have settled down in SH. Hope your health problems are
being sorted.
Cyrus

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Andy
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] some current bloomers
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

Lovely flowers Tony. I rather like the form too. I think that, like this,
they have a charm that can be lost with (over) selection. Though I welcome
it being used to breed a pure white, short growing easy-to-flower hybrid -
i'll be in the queue for one!

Andy

"Tony Watkinson" wrote on Monday, November 05

> I will grant that this is not a pure Alba, but very close. Only recently
> discovered in the Philippines.
>
> Vanda javierae. Not the worlds greatest shape either.
>
> No, not mine unfortunately.

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From: yanelys luis
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: what kind of orchid I have
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007

please I need some help to find out what kind of orchids I have, if you can
help me write me back to zosia21@gmail.com

thank you very much

zosia

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Labeling and Judging.
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007

Thanks Lynda,
for a very informative message. Judging isn't of great interest to me (not really my scene, as they say!) except insofar as it provides society members with an aim. At the risk of boring members with my banging on about labelling; what would your attitude be towards a plant labelled "Stanhopea cf. wardii as opposed to one labelled Stanhopea wardii? I use this plant as an example because I have (well! my wife tends them!) several stanhopeas. We find S.wardii and a few others quite variable to the extent that I feel unhappy about the confidence with which I can identify them. S. wardii and S. tigrina are especially difficult and variable (to us). In fact, we have some that seem to differ enough from year to year to cast doubt on their identity. I'm sure someone like Dick Hartley could pronounce on them with confidence but, just supposing the plants obliged by flowering at show time, would a judge be put off by the implied uncertainty of a "cf label" or be impressed by the honesty of it?
John

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Tropical rain
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007

Geoff,, Just read your article in Orchid Review. Very interesting and informative. I am surprised that no scholar in a rainforest country has chemically analysed this water. Maybe it would revolutionise the fertiliser market. Thanks again for a good article.
Devon is sunny again. Regards Dennis

-------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Fertilisers.
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007

Hi Dennis,

Yes, it is somewhat confusing, but then many of the labels are these days.

At least it appears to be the same make-up as many other fertilisers that we can buy off the shelf.

The Nitrogen and the Phosphate are roughly equal, while the Potash is slightly higher.

The same can be said for:

Tomorite.

Maxicrop Orchid Fertiliser [Just seen this for the first time on the Internet]

Both of the above have roughly the same ratios.

I will be sticking with my Maxicrop Original as it works fine for me.

Thanks for the information.

Regards, Rocky.

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Name that flower.
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007

Hi Yanelys luis,

Not quite sure what your first name is.

Maybe you could send us a photo of the plant so that we can see what it looks like especially the leaves.

I can come up with three that it may be.

1. A Trichoglottis

2. A species Phalaenopsis

3. A Miltonoides cross. Which I think it is.

It's the two projections at the bottom of the lip that fascinate me.

I feel sure that one of our 'Club' members will come up with the correct answer.

Kind regards, Rocky.

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From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Cattleya maxima
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007

Hi all,

My plant of Cattleya maxima which I bought some weeks ago has flowered for me. Three nice blooms, rather floppy and not of what I would call strong blooms.

So, after about three weeks the flowers have begun to droop. I am guessing that Cattleya maxima blooms do not stay in good order for as many weeks as some other Cattleyas.

Can anyone tell me if I am thinking on the right lines please.

Regards, Rocky.

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