2007 mailing list messages

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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Slotted terra cotta pots.
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Rocky, you can explain to Laura and Rudolph what that is . .
(and will it help us to grow orchids?)
John

> Forgive me when I ask where do you live.........because you mentioned
> slotted terra cotta pots.

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Guardian wild UK orchid article
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Hello everyone,
I trust we are all Grauniad readers and saw the orchid article in todays G2 section.
(Rudolph; the Guardian was/is (in)famous for its misprints and Private Eye, the distinguished satirical magazine, uses Grauniad as a creative synonym for it which many readers affectionately use.
Another British idiosyncrasy!)
John

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Slotted terra cotta pots.
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Roger Grier wrote:
>
> Here in England they are just about as rare as 'Rocking horse shit'.
>
Oh, I don't know, I've horse manure rock on many occasions, not least
when I muck out the stable. And of course, it rocks in the garden as
well ;-)

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Spiders
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Would-be arachnophiles might look out for 'A guide to house and garden
spiders' published by FSC (Field Study Centres' ), costs about £3 and
illustrates typical examples from 21 of the 33 families of spiders
represented in GB. Species identification often involves a microscope and
careful examination of the genitalia , not something I am keen on doing ..

Several families do the tunnel web thing , one of the most notable being
Tegenaria gigantea which for all it's name is the common house spider ,
typically up to 16mm ( the books say). But then 3 years old is getting on a
bit, and I don't think there is any real growth limit factor , so that the
2cm guess could well apply.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] A bog
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

We can − and some people do − from dandelions. I used to do it , many years
ago when I was an impecunious technical assistant paid ninepence a week (
relatively speaking). Makes your hands very yellow indeed as it takes a
million petals to make a gallon , and the no doubt very rich proteinous
pollen is a strong (nicotine colour) stain. Did you realise that a single
dandelion flower is actually a large number of flowers? That's what
compositeae means.

What an erudite show-off waste-of -time chap I am today − it's displacement
activity as there is another more serious job I am trying to put off doing.

> I have a friend from the UK who grew goldenrod, much to the chagrin of her
> neighbors here.

From:
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Laura and Potting.
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

i find with bulbophyllums if you have old leafless bulbs cutting through
rhizome
will generate new life

From:
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Stanhopea
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

From: Laura Peppiatt
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Laura and Potting.
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

> Laura,you seem to be getting some nice plants and I hope that they go well
> for you. You spoke about Cym.canaliculatum which of course comes from
> Australia. It is a lovely thing but can be very difficult to grow. It
> requires very dry conditions and you will find that any excess water will
> kill it quite quickly. They generally grow in the upper section of dead and
> mostly hollow trees

> where the roots can easily reach up to 15feet or more in length. I have
> also seen them growing on old broken down trees where they form quite a
> mass.

From: Laura Peppiatt
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Makes you swear !!!
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Geoff,
I am glad that you have had some laugh. It extends your life.
I will try to be bold more frequently too.

> Your message gave me a good laugh Laura. Some members do wander off the
> subject from time-time − (mea culpa , too ) and I thought, 3 cats ?

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] A bog
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Hi Geoff n all,
While it is show-off or waste o' time time, here's a bit more;
Reading Geoff's offerings it occurred to me that I didn't know the origin of the name "Dandelion" (shame). Unlikely to be Daniel de Lion I thought and I was right (more's the pity since it'd make a nice coat of arms!)
It is (of course) dents (teeth) of the lion − or dents de lion (don't groan!) It refers to the denticulate edges of the leaves and, sadly, nothing to do with the flower. I wonder if you can make wine from lions' teeth?
I reckon Stanhopea 'd make a good wine − 'plenty of nose' I think connoisseurs might say! Are there any orchidaceous wines?
John

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Stanhopea
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

This is the Stanhopea National Collection ( website, and owners address )-,
and if you are interested in the genus , you really should see the display
this chap puts up at major shows − like Peterborough for example.

Considering that in my (possibly ignorant) opinion the flowers last only
days , not weeks, it amazes me that he shows dozens of species, sometimes
several different forms of each , and all in perfect condition of full
bloom. I just don't know how he does it.

Ps This information ( URLs) available from the National Collections main
web-site, aka NCCPG.

From: Esther Koh
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Slotted terra cotta pots.
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

>Oh, I don't know, I've horse manure rock on many occasions, not
>least when I muck out the stable. And of course, it rocks in the
>garden as well ;-)

From: Esther Koh
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Makes you swear !!!
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Thanks for all the answers to my question about M.O.T. So it is not just Singaporeans who are partial to acronyms. With regards to repotting, do you dry out your plant before putting it in the new pot? I was advised to let dust all the wounds with fungicide and let the plant dry for a few days before potting in new media.

From: Esther Koh
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Root identification.
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Even old roots that feel firm are very brown in colour. That's why I accidentally cut some of them, thinking they were dead. The ones that have sloughed off their outter core are easy to recognise as dead ones.

when liturature says drop temperature over night how long is a night?, would
say 4hrs be enough or as in tropics 12hrs? to provide the orchids there
cool period,i know at the mo we only have approx 6 hrs night in uk ,if we
provide 12hrs coo lwould that improve growth??

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Stanhopea site
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Les,
Can you give an idea of what aspects of Stanhopea you are interested
in? Taxonomy? Cultivation? Hybridising? Identifying? Evolution? Or what? In
the meantime;

From your email address you are no newcomer to orchids and so you
probably know the obvious sites like Jay Pfahl's Orchid Encyclopedia
(http://www.orchidspecies.com/).
We have a local Stanhopea grower in Staffordshire here in UK who holds
the UK National Collection of them ;try;
http://users.skynet.be/jmv9874/Foxdalewebsite/)

If I wanted to know more about the ones we grow he's the man I'd ask.
Usefully, he also provides an email. He certainly knows how to grow a wide
range of them and is present at many shows in the UK and is well known and
well respected.
Hope this is useful.
John Stanley
Crewe
Cheshire UK

From: Paul Johnson
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Spiders
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Geoff's reference recommendation is a good one. The book is
invaluable for those of us on the west side of the pond because most
of the noxious spiders here are exotics, for us, and mostly from
Europe. One of the relatively recently introduced species (thanks to
decreased quarantine restrictions in the early 80's with global
trade) agelenids, or so-called funnelweb spiders, that is
particularly troublesome is what is called here the Hobo spider,
Tegeneria agrestis. It is anthropophilic in lifestyle, is aggressive
(esp. females) and severe ulcerations can occur at bite sites. Here
is a website devoted to the beast: http://www.hobospider.com/info/
#come.

Even some of the less aggressive funnelweb spiders can give nasty
bites, with many personal reactions to primary toxins or allergic to
associated enzymes. It may be prudent to treat all funnelweb spiders
with respect, or disdain, depending on ones personal degrees of small-
creature-related psychological disturbances.

Note: Measurements given for spiders, and insects and other small
creatures, are typically average or maximal, or a size range may be
given; assume the former if the latter is not self-evident. Most
terrestrial arthropods do not grow larger once they attain
physiological maturity. The difficulty may be distinguishing between
juveniles and adults. One of the problems with spiders is that some
authors give lengths for the body, others will give body length and
leg spread, but a competent author will distinguish between these
metrics and specify them.

> Would-be arachnophiles might look out for 'A guide to house and
> garden spiders' published by FSC (Field Study Centres' ), costs
> about £3 and illustrates typical examples from 21 of the 33
> families of spiders represented in GB. Species identification often
> involves a microscope and careful examination of the genitalia ,
> not something I am keen on doing ..

From: Tina Stagg
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Cattleyas.
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Rain?? We don't do rain here! Today (Friday) is a hot, sunny day with hardly a white, fluffy cloud in the sky.

We often have rain in the night, which suits us very well − we like to get things organised properly in Deganwy!

Cattleyas: Yes, I do notch the rhizome sometimes, but not when I am repotting. I do it several months beforehand. Only a shallow notch, not all the way through the rhizome − I want specimen plants not lots of bits. Sometimes it works, often it doesn't.

> ...What do you think about taking a 'V' shaped notch out of the rhizome
> between the bulbs? Do you think it tells the dormant eyes to start
> into growth?

I didn't say 2 cm, John, but 3-4. It may well be bigger − as I said it is very shy. It has lived with me for several years, so that should narrow identification down a bit. And I cannot be sure that it is a British spider. Perhaps a webcam (joke) is the answer.

I think I might have to discourage it before my holiday − I can't very well say to the kind lady gardener who is going to look after the greenhouses 'O, by the way, watch out for the funnel web in the corner'

From: Esther Koh
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Root identification.
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

>Rocky,
>
>Even old roots that feel firm are very brown in colour. That's why I
>accidentally cut some of them, thinking they were dead. The ones that have
>sloughed off their outter core are easy to recognise as dead ones.

From: ema.orquideas Perú
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Stanhopea
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Erica Morón de Abad Propagación y Conservación de Orquídeas Peruanas BiOrquidTropic Perú-Laboratorio (MR)

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Stanhopaeas
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Dick Harley's orchid houses are a sight that will make many orchid growers wonder in envy. He has hundreds of Stanhopaeas hanging from his rafters and the benches are ful of magnificent Anguloas and Lycaste and their hybrids. He is now one of the organisers of the Peterborough Orchid Show.
It is possible to make an appointment to see the collection and him and his wife Denise are great hosts. Geoff, to put on his show he has an adapted van with racks and brings twice as many orchids to each show than he eventually stages.
He is now one of the UK's top growers and exhibitors but is still basically an amateur. Regards

There has been a fair amount of talk about cutting off dead roots. My appeal is for a method of growing roots. I have one Phragmipedium and one Paphiopedalum that have no roots. I have tried them in perlite for 6 months and the in moss for 6 months to no avail. They are still growig, albeit slowly. Has any one a new suggestion. Giving up is not an option as they cost a fair amount. Any chemicals that may help?

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Spiders − hazard − hobbyhorse − or happy association?
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Paul,
I would certainly bow to your superior knowledge on matters arthropodal (you've put me right on occasions before) and while I recognise your problem in the N.Am., I really do wonder if there is a hazard with spiders in the UK? By hazard I mean encounters with beasties that might take the offensive initiative rather than nip in self defence and warrant the designation of pest status. I suppose with higher temperatures we might find the odd unpredictable south European bug (Mediterranean venomous spider or small scorpion) or encounter the odd orchid-imported baddie but I'd have thought they're likely to be small ones (unlike Tina's). I have never met anyone who has had more than a slight nip that can be felt from a UK species.
I have to say that if I were in Tina's situation, I would far rather watch, photograph and then identify the lodger before evicting it. After all, if it's had three years to commit mischief I would have thought it might have had a go by now.
North America is another matter; you can't even sit on an old log without thinking about what might be under your bottom and with your temperatures, one tends to wear thinner (and shorter) trousers than over here . . nasty!
Just for the record; I wonder if any OrchidTalk contributors have ever been savaged by a spider in the UK? In or out of the orchid house?
For at least 60 of my 70 years I've allowed spiders and most other bugs I've encountered to crawl in my palms and the worst I've experienced is a wasp sting and the occasional mosquito or sawfly puncture. That includes camping when the tent seemed to be a general assembly hall for displaced terrestrial and airborne arthropods of many kinds (I'd be more careful outside familiar UK).
I 'd humbly offer the advice of treating the spider with respect; don't poke, prod or otherwise tease it. It seems fashionable in the UK at present to admire all wildlife, especially if it's feathery or furry, unless it either enters your patch or makes messes or noises that reach your ears.
If I lived in N.Am.,I'd have a different attitude (over this spider) since many animals in a fresh habitat can get out of hand in the absence of natural predators/competitors and become troublesome in ways not recognised on their home patch. I suspect that's the case here.
John

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Drop in temperature at night.
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

Damned if I can remember your first name.....do us a favour and enlighten us then I can record it.

As you say, the dark hours are very different depending where you live on this planet of ours.

And if you live in our region, meaning England and like me you heat a greenhouse with an electric room heater which is thermostatically controlled, and the thermostat is not touched, then how do you get the lower night temperatures.

In my case, it only happens when we get very cold nights in the Winter and the heater is not man enough to keep the temperature up to what a call a happy medium. I DO NOT FORCE THE HEATER TO KEEP TO THIS TEMPERATURE. I would rather let the temperature drop those few degrees.

I do find that the orchids that in a good growing state such as Phalaenopsis to respond to those lower temperatures and throw up plenty of spikes.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Cutting 'V' shaped slots in a rhizome.
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

I cut the 'V' shaped slot in my Cattleya rhizome, and other orchids that have a nice strong large rhizome to hopefully trigger the dormant eyes in the back bulbs to start into growth.

Tina gave the 'Club' a very nice answer and explained how she goes about it which I fully agree with, however, tomorrow I will endeavour to take a few photographs of just what I have been up to these past few days.

In my case, I decided to re-pot a couple of my Cattleyas as the new growths were almost over the pot rim and I also wanted to split the plants in two. This of course left me with a back portion of a few bulbs, leaves and not many roots. That is when I decided to try the old trick of cutting the 'V' shaped slots out of the rhizome.

If you think about it, similar methods are used on many garden plants/shrubs to encourage them to break from other places.

I have notched quite a few orchids to increase the growths on a plant. Tobe sucessful leave two mature growths then notch the rhizomeon the side of the existing growth leaving the un-notched side to feed the dormant growth. the plant should be growing well and not just re-potted in my opinion.
Regards from North Devon, 30 odd miles from Boscastle, where yesterday the heavens opened but today has been clear and sunny. Tina, where is Deganwyin Camelot. When I worked in North Wales I developed web feet.

From: TONY GARTHWAITE
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] temperature drop
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007

If you are thinking "Cymbidiums", and leaving out in the UK, get them
out now and you should have good flowers in the winter months. I suspect
that the length of night is not a problem, it is the temperature
difference that is important.
I'm sure Geoff may have information on that aspect, but if it is like
sterilisation processes for foods, the answer will be a combination of
time and temperature.
However, as we have no control over the weather in the UK I should not
worry about it if I were you! BUT....remember to water and feed them!!
Tony G.

> when liturature says drop temperature over night how long is a night?,
> would say 4hrs be enough or as in tropics 12hrs? to provide the orchids
> there cool period,i know at the mo we only have approx 6 hrs night in uk,
> if we provide 12hrs coo lwould that improve growth??

From: Roy Lee
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] temperature drop
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

I think what you are reading in relationship to tempature drop is really refering to the plants needs enduce flowering, not growth.
For flowering, the temp drop you indicate is fine and no alteration would be required in my opinion. Plants growing in the wild have an in-built sense that what is occuring is natural, plants grown in cultivation sometimes don't have that and we need to copy nature.

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] A bog
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

Geoffrey Hands wrote:
> million petals to make a gallon , and the no doubt very rich proteinous
> pollen is a strong (nicotine colour) stain. Did you realise that a single
> dandelion flower is actually a large number of flowers? That's what
> compositeae means.
>
Yes, I knew that − much better value for money, don't you agree? And
apparently there are some 500 species in the UK alone; shame they all
look the same (although in Japan they have one that is white).

From: P G Hieke
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Makes you swear !!!
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

And the other thing that makes you swear is snapping off an inflorescence
while you are trying to tie it up nicely for a better presentation of
the flowers. It happened to me on thursday afternoon with a Phally.
I attach a picture to show the flower.
Regards
Peter

> I was de-potting two large Cattleyas, washing them, cutting away all
> old roots, washing the main stems and removing all the old sheaths,
> carefully cleaning the rhizome and generally giving the plant a first
> class M.O.T. when I knocked off a nice new growth that was about 4cm in
> length..........I did swear $)(&^%$£(*&%.

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Spiders
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

Don't miss Paul Johnson's email Tina − he knows his arthropods. As for me,I'd put it in a box and let it live in a shed where there aren't orchids . . or the hedge at the bottom of the garden.
Cheers
John

> I didn't say 2 cm, John, but 3-4. It may well be bigger − as I said it
> is very shy. It has lived with me for several years, so that should
> narrow identification down a bit. And I cannot be sure that it is a
> British spider. Perhaps a webcam (joke) is the answer.

> I think I might have to discourage it before my holiday − I can't very
> well say to the kind lady gardener who is going to look after the
> greenhouses 'O, by the way, watch out for the funnel web in the corner'

From:
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night.
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

thanks for replies folks temperature control is no problem i grow in
heated grn hse,i am just curious about night length which i can control
(HPS)winter i have 12hrs day and 12hrs night ,i know for instance
pointsetters
(spelling) require long periods of darkness to colour up,now if orchids grow
in same locality wouldnt they have the same requirements to some extent?im
quite happy with my results but it would be nice if we could improve on it
many thanks
tom

From:
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Roots
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

reading D Grove book on vandas page 203 he recomends hanging plants upside
down
it prevents waterlingering in leaf axils,but the main reason it thwarts
apical dominance it reverses the flow of hormones to the growing tip and diverts
to
produce root growth seing this as the now top of the plant,i use it on phals
vandas rynchostylus and any other struggling plant,one side effect was on
Coel pandurata it run out of cork space after 2 1/2 ft so iturned it upside
down
to see what happened after couple of months it produced new growth from old
bulbs at the bottom but they started to twist so i righted it but new growth
continued to grow so i have more bushier plant
tom
ps dont know if it would work on paphs or phrags though unless they where
kept very very moist / humid

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Growing new Paph roots.
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

We may have come from the same mould as I was only thinking of asking the Club members for their collective advice on this very subject.

For many years a did not give Paphs a second glance, but slowly, because of the multi flowered varieties and the wonderful colours of some of the species, I became slightly interested.

I now go back to when Ratcliffe's were at Chilton, and I visited the nursery quite a lot. One day I was looking through a glass topped door to where a lady sat who was de-potting some Paphs to be air-mailed to Italy. I was very surprised at the what I would call lack of roots. And like you Dennis I have never grown Paphs to anything like some people.

Then some years ago I was visiting Wisley Gardens and the chap who was in charge of the large greenhouse built just for orchids showed me the root run that the Paphs had made........over a meter long.

So, like you Dennis I hope that some of the Members can come up with a very good medium for growing Paph roots.

I only have five or six pots with Paphs in them, whether there are any roots I will find out tomorrow. That's when I am going to try a new mix. Will not tell you what it is as yet, but hope that it works.

The final thing that I have to say is that having looked at Paph roots under a microscope and seeing that their roots have hairs all round the root, this has given me [hopefully] a clue as to what to try.

From: Beccy Holmes
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night.
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

I've been considering this nighttime drop and wonder if, in these warmer
days of summer, turning the thermostat down for a few weeks would give a
night time drop whist the warmer days would bring the temperature up
naturally in the daytime. I know this is crude but turning the stat up and
down each day seems a little hit and miss when (here) it's not always the
same person shutting the glasshouses each night.

I'm also not sure over how many nights a drop would be required to affect a
response. Is there an optimum time of year to attempt this? And, someone
(with less orchid knowledge even than myself) said the return to 'normal'
(in our house 20 degrees) needed to be fairly rapid, therefore the stat
needed to be turned up daily to force the temperature to rise quickly.

>Hi Bhotplant,
>
>Damned if I can remember your first name.....do us a favour and enlighten
>us then I can record it.
>
>Those damned night time drops that some books speak about.
>
>As you say, the dark hours are very different depending where you live on
>this planet of ours.
>
>And if you live in our region, meaning England and like me you heat a
>greenhouse with an electric room heater which is thermostatically
>controlled, and the thermostat is not touched, then how do you get the
>lower night temperatures.

The first image is of a cross section of an orchid root showing how wonderful the open honeycombed structure really is. It also illustrates that even if the outer 'skin' of the orchid is dry and taking on the greyish white colour, THAT THE INNER PORTION IS STILL PACKED FULL OF MOISTURE AND FOOD.

Hope this in some way helps people to not in future clog the roots vital organs with a 'soup-like' compost, and also NOT to give more moisture when it is not required.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: The good, the bad and the ugly !!!
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

As it is absolutely chucking it down with rain, what better than to look out some slides, copy them to the computer and show them to our members, hopefully doing some good.

They are all of plants that I once purchased from shall we say 'Orchid Nurseries'. When I returned home and the plants had been not doing to well I decided to have a look at them.

First image shows a Vanda type orchid..........at least there were TWO good roots !!!!!

Second image shows a pot that had fallen from the staging...........the roots outside of the 'gunge' look excellent, but look at horrible smelly mess inside.

Third Image with the pink tips to the roots [ If my memory serves me correctly was of an Coelogyne]. Easy to see what should be cut away and what should be retained.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Spiders − hazard − hobbyhorse − or happy association?
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

Does seem to me that the chance of an alien spider being alive
in a UK greenhouse is very remote indeed. I know that pests can get through
the barriers , and e.g. some of the South American guys sell bare root stuff
at British shows, and one could be lurking there , but, question, have you
ever bought any bare root imports Tina ?

Personally I have been buying orchids from all over for a very long time ,
for the first dozen or more (20?) years of my orchid life ( back in the
pre-CITES days) I had a bare root importation( of jungle collected plants
too) , coming into my greenhouse something like every other month, and
collection in the wild was legal , importation was different even then ,
but I used to get a permit from the Min of Agriculture , usually allowing up
to 6kg of plants from the countries I had listed in my request , and they
gave a me a list of what I couldn't import ( I remember Berberis and some
Pinus sp. being on those lists, not orchidaceous of course , but it took me
some time to find out why not, and they stick in my memory.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night.
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

Roger , you buy a dual temperature stat − Simply Control have listed them
for 20+ years ! You set the night hours − the rest are day hours. You set
the day temperature, and the degree difference ( 0-10 degs C ) . They
sometimes call them set-back sytats , 'cos they set the temperature back for
the night hours.

Personally I have often ( and at present) use a central heating system, with
a programmer. I set the temperature at different times by this device. I use
day temperatures from 9-5 , and night temperatures for the rest ; it takes
some time for the house to cool from the day to the night, and to warm up
from the night to the day . The higher temperature is needed during the part
of the photosynthetic process ( which is a 2 or more stage process) where
photo energy is required, i.e. daylight ; and the process proceeds faster at
optimum temperature − which varies according to species, but is likely to be
towards say 25 deg. C. The lower temperature is needed during the part of
the cycle where excess oxygen passes out of the stomata, and proceeds best
at lower temperatures, and photo energy is not involved − night.

It's called diurnal shift , or diurnal difference , and it's very, very
important. To learn more, look up Krebs cycle , but modern plant
physiological theory has it that there are at least two different processes,
some employed by one species, another by other species, and that some
species can use either, other's can't. We are still learning − those of us
with open minds..

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] temperature drop
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

I think you are right Tony . I expect you know the work on ripening lilium
seeds, where it comes top e.g. 130 hours of sunlight at a temperature of
5500K or over , and it does not matter if it takes 4 weeks or 10 − the seeds
are still ripe at the end of it but not before. ( and I can ripen a Paph
rothschildiana seed-pod in 8 months, and it takes 15 weeks in Chiang-mai)

I don't have a any fugures for Cymbidiums , but I recall that in Southern
California they used to water Cyms every night in the first part of the
summer with ice water − water with blocks of ice in it ; I took it to mean
May-July. That was in lieu of cold nights, and achieved the same effect.
Geoff

> If you are thinking "Cymbidiums", and leaving out in the UK, get them
> out now and you should have good flowers in the winter months. I suspect
> that the length of night is not a problem, it is the temperature
> difference that is important.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Roots
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

I'm sure you have thought of fresh sphagnum moss, which would otherwise have
been my suggestion. .

> There has been a fair amount of talk about cutting off dead roots. My appeal
> is for a method of growing roots. I have one Phragmipedium and one
> Paphiopedalum that have no roots. I have tried them in perlite for 6 months
> and the in moss for 6 months to no avail. They are still growig, albeit
> slowly. Has any one a new suggestion. Giving up is not an option as they
> cost a fair amount. Any chemicals that may help?

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] temperature drop
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

Many years ago Laurie Humphries ( no doubt now growing orchids to the sound
of celestial harps) who was very experienced − proprietor of Armstrong &
Brown nursery. Vice-chair of the RHS Orchid Committee etc etc., told me of a
visit to a large USA nursery as consultant , to solve a problem., Their
seedlings grown entirely under lights were not actually growing at all. He
discovered that they had the lights on for 18 hours a day , and he said that
this did not give the cells time enough to purge the unwanted oxygen etc ;
he tried reducing to 12 initially, which got them growing again, and then
they experimented with different periods ; I was intrigued, and in my tiny
way growing a mere few dozen odont seedlings under lights, made my own test
, and ended up using 8 hours of lights and then I think 5 of darkness ( the
sums did not have to add up to 24 in a closed chamber )continually repeated.
Clearly , if the growth is vigorous, the growing (lights ) time can be
shorter , and once purging is complete , growing can start again.
Of course temperature has to be adjusted in sync.
Hope this gives you food for thought.

> when liturature says drop temperature over night how long is a night?, would
> say 4hrs be enough or as in tropics 12hrs? to provide the orchids there cool
> period,i know at the mo we only have approx 6 hrs night in uk ,if we provide
> 12hrs coo lwould that improve growth??

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Regeneration.
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

My intended photos showing the 'V' shaped slots in the rhizome of my Cattleya will have to be put off until tomorrow as the skies have just opened to be accompanied with lightening and thunder. And it is very wet out there !!!

We all know how orchids can regenerate themselves, and we have heard about when re-potting, to cut away any bad/rotten part of a root and to make sure that we cut into the good part.

If you look at the image.....look at the right hand new root which id over the pot rim and doing very well thankyou. The next two, to the left are also doing very well.

Now look at the root which is farthest left. The growing tip of the root was either broken, or maybe eaten by a bug or whatever.

The important thing is this. Shall we say that the original root was ten inches/twenty six centimetres long.

The orchid seems to have said to itself: "I must send out some new roots to be able to cling to my host, as the growing tip has been eaten". But just look at, and measure the total length of the new roots. Amazing.

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Spiders − hazard − hobbyhorse − or happy association?
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

I am pretty sure that a few years ago, when I was at
home, agonising having pulled a muscle on my back, and
being on very heavy pain killers, a huge spider came
in from the garden, and taking adavantage of my
immobility (pretty much knocked out on pain killers),
the beast did give me an evil look and was sprinting
towards me... Thank God my cat came in on time to save
me from the eight-legged freak!

> Just for the record; I wonder if any OrchidTalk
> contributors have ever been savaged by a spider in
> the UK? In or out of the orchid house?

From:
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night.
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

Beccy
just set min temp and leave well alone we have sunshine and stormy showers
at the moment but at 9ocl in morning my grn hse is at around 24c
,sun comes out between showers and raises temp enough for me to have to try
and cool it

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Roots
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

> reading D Grove book on vandas page 203 he recomends hanging plants upside
> down...

From: Tina Stagg
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Spiders
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

If I can't even see it for more than a nanosecond, John, how on earth am I supposed to observe it, let alone catch it? It's down inside the funnel, occasionally with the very ends of two legs peeping out, behind a wooden strut. It can obviously see me because it disappears when I go near, but I can't see it.

The poor thing wouldn't survive long in any of our sheds − nothing at all to eat − or, probably, in the hedge − much colder at night than the 18C it is used to. Apart from which, if it is a nasty, I want to know where it is.

You can have it as a present if you like − bring your own box and gauntlets, just in case!

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Phrag kovachii − the latest scandal...
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

It appears that some, if not most, of the flasks of Phrag.kovachii seedlings
that were initially exported from Peru were not that species at all, but
rather some undefined hybrid or species − possibly Phrag.boissefrianum.

I quote from Orchid Digest , where the reporter quotes a letter he has seen
from Peruflora apologising to one customer.

It seems that the leaves are − or should be distinct , and the seedlings
seen do not have the right leaves.

( I am feeling smug − they were on sale at the French WOC, and the asking
price was 500 something per flask, when I was offered them − Euro, dollars,
pounds − doesn't matter − no way is an old bloke like me, not that good at
raising seedlings anyway , going to part with 500 smackers )

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Spiders − hazard − hobbyhorse − or happy association?
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

Ah, yes but it didn't actually do more than give you an evil look Francis,
so that doesn't count! And was it really smart enough to know that you were
defenceless? (Just goes to show how hazardous pain killers are . . . nearly
knocking you out!))
John

> I am pretty sure that a few years ago, when I was at
> home, agonising having pulled a muscle on my back, and
> being on very heavy pain killers, a huge spider came
> in from the garden, and taking adavantage of my
> immobility (pretty much knocked out on pain killers),
> the beast did give me an evil look and was sprinting
> towards me... Thank God my cat came in on time to save
> me from the eight-legged freak!

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night-another aspect to contemplate.
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007

It is with some hesitation that I raise this issue again since little
interest was evoked last time. However;
I discovered some time ago that about 50% of orchids, like some other
plants (especially crassulaceans) are CAM plants (CAM is an acronym for
C-rassulacean A-cid M-etabolism). That is to say, they have a mechanism
whereby, during the heat of the day, little or no gaseous exchange (CO2 in
O2 out) takes place but it occurs at night in the dark. Photosynthesis
doesn't occur at night and so their nocturnally acquired CO2 is stored in
malic acid (it's a bit more complex than that) and used later during
daylight hours for photosynthesis.
The classic story relates to succulent plants trying to conserve water by
keeping their stomata closed in the heat of the day so why orchids, some
living in humid conditions, have this facility I don't understand.
However, my point here is that there might well be different requirements
for CAM orchids compared with 'conventional' ones. Does anybody out there
know anything about this topic. I can't help thinking that there must be
different temperature-humidy requirements for CAM plants compared with
others (cups hands to ears just in case someone knows something).
John

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Spiders
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007

Then why worry about it being seen by the kind lady who looks after your orchids?
John

> If I can't even see it for more than a nanosecond, John, how on earth
> am I supposed to observe it, let alone catch it? It's down inside the
> funnel, occasionally with the very ends of two legs peeping out, behind
> a wooden strut. It can obviously see me because it disappears when I go
> near, but I can't see it.

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night-another aspect to contemplate.
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007

John Stanley wrote:
> The classic story relates to succulent plants trying to conserve water by
> keeping their stomata closed in the heat of the day so why orchids, some
> living in humid conditions, have this facility I don't understand.
>
Perhaps they have evolved from species that used to live in more extreme
environments − some current epiphytes live in conditions where they are
soaked at some point during the year and then have very little access to
water for a long period of time. In my experience useful traits, once
they have evolved never go away entirely (think of the residual 'hind
legs' you can very occasionally find on whales).

> However, my point here is that there might well be different requirements
> for CAM orchids compared with 'conventional' ones. Does anybody out there
> know anything about this topic. I can't help thinking that there must be
> different temperature-humidy requirements for CAM plants compared with
> others (cups hands to ears just in case someone knows something).
> John
>
I haven't heard of any such thing, but I suspect Philip Cribbs of Kew
would know about it − he very kindly helped me find the best flora to
the orchids of China once.

From:
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Roots
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007

as mentioned i have used the method on Vandas ,Rhynchostylis,and Phals,at
this moment in time i have rhynch gigantia spot upside down been like it for 6
wks
with new root about 1/4 in long and round in old money,can post photo if
required.
tom

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Swaer words !!!
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007

Yes, I guess we have all broken a flower spike when we are being so careful not to !!!!!

I do like that red colour of your Phally, and I note the white edge around the outer part of the petals. I wonder what patterns we will see on Phallys in a year or two???

And of course there is one other very annoying thing that orchids do..........you just try to lift an orchid off the bench that has a nice long flower spike on it with a couple of flowers open. Orchids seem to be graced with that strange phenomena that they will always get tangled in another flower spike.

From:
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Roots
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007

It did work for me. Last year I bought a pahp from Radcliffe and it had just one root. I used K-L-M rooting concentrate. Plant has grown god roots but still no flowers.

From: P G Hieke
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Drop in temperature
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007

The drop in temperature is absolutely essential for plants to produce
flowers. For example, Dendrobium crumenatum, a plant few orchid growers
have. It is said in the books that the plant flowers 19 days after a severe
thunderstorm, i. e. a drop in temperature and also that all plants in that
area will flower on that day, because the flowers last one day only.

I have the plant for about 15 years and every year it will be in flower, and one
can not predict when it will be. Last year it flowerd 3 times between November
and December, why, because we had very unsettled weather with rapid changes
in temperature from very high to very low.

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Roots
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007

Thanks Laura. What is K-L-M ? and where can it be bought in the UK. As I have 3 Paphs with no roots I can try 3 methods. Regards from a washed out Devon

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night-another aspect to contemplate.
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007

Thanks for those intelligent thoughts Jan. I had previously contemplated
the possibility that some orchids were once succulents and in fact there
are quite a few now that look as they really ought to be from their
physical features(some of the terete leaved ones for example). As you say,
once they have evolved down a particular route they don't go back although
the trait might be evolutionarily re-modified. I believe some CAM plants
can switch on or off the CAM physiology according to need. I've also
wondered if CAM physiology could have arisen for reasons other than water
retention . . but I can't imagine one . . . . can you?

The real problem is that I don't know which are CAM orchids and which
aren't. I think I was once told that Cattleyas probably are. Maybe the
topic is too abstruse for the forum since physiological subtleties of even
basic photosythesis aren't everyone's cup o' tea never mind CAM complexity.

Even so, it seems worth throwing out a baited line now and again!
Thanks for your interest. Let's watch this space a while!! (I suspect you
might be equipped to enjoy http://www.csulb.edu/~cohlberg/songbook.html.
Right click on "Photosynthesis" − or any others − and "save to Target".
You should then be able to play the file. If you are new to it it'll
either fill you with biochemical enthusiasm or bore you to tears!)

> Perhaps they have evolved from species that used to live in more extreme
> environments − >

From: Esther Koh
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: ORCHID TALK − Digest 2007, Volume Drop in temperature
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007

My D. crumenatum flowered this morning and the clumps in the trees nearby are also flowering. There were some thunderstorms last week and the week before, but I did not keep count of the number of days.

Some orchid growers here think that the rain washes off a compound from the plant that inhibits flowering, and that temperature has nothing to do with it.

From: Dr Chong-Yee Khoo
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: ORCHID TALK − Digest 2007, Volume Drop in temperature
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007

It should be quite straightforward to design an experiment to
distinguish between the 2 possibilities.

I know that some experiments have been done, the results of which
support the temperature drop hypothesis. But I need to check my
reference books to see exactly how the experiments were carried out.

Given the simultaneous blooming of all plants in the same locality,
though, I would have considered the alternative theory as not very
plausible the alternative theory would have to account for the
different amounts of rain experienced by different plants, some of
which may be more shaded than others. Ockham's Razor says you should
prefer the simpler theory.

There is also some indication, as reported by Joe Arditti at the Kuala
Lumpur WOC, that the trigger is actually a change in humidity rather
than temperature. Again, I need to check the books.

From: ema.orquideas Perú
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Phrag kovachii − the latest scandal...
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007

Erica Morón de Abad Propagación y Conservación de Orquídeas Peruanas BiOrquidTropic Perú-Laboratorio (MR) www.biorquidtropic.com biorquidtropic@yahoo.com

> It appears that some, if not most, of the flasks of Phrag.kovachii
> seedlings that were initially exported from Peru were not that species
> at all, but rather some undefined hybrid or species − possibly
> Phrag.boissefrianum.

From: James H
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Growing new Paph roots.
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007

i get good growth although i find it a bit slow but they live and look very
healthy just not as fast as i would like to see.

From:
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Roots
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007

Dyna-Gro K-L-N − promotes vigorous root growth. Yes it is N not M in the end, sorry.

> Thanks Laura. What is K-L-M ? and where can it be bought in the UK. As
> I have 3 Paphs with no roots I can try 3 methods. Regards from a washed
> out Devon

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Roots
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007

From: P G Hieke
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: ORCHID TALK − Digest 2007, Volume Drop in temperature
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007

No, my plant grows in a green/hot-house. It is impossible to grow
tropical plants outside in Cape Town. This morning the temperature
was 8º C. Right now, almost lunchtime it is 12ºC and it is raining
on and off.
Regards
Peter from Bloubergstrand

Looking at the peruflora web site as posted a couple of days ago it talks of 300 ppm. Geoff was it you a while (long) ago gave a conversion as gms/gallon or tea spoons / gallon or micro siemens of conductivity. Suggestions welcome.
Regards from a chilly but dry (for now ) Devon

From: Ron Newstead
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: problems!
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007

In order to ensure a plentiful supply of rainwater I have installed a number
of water butts. However, in the dry summer that we had been having the water
started to become green. How can I prevent this without damaging the
orchids?

Ants seem to find the conditions in the orchid house particularly to their
liking. How can I get rid of them and stop them coming back?

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] problems! − (true algae and Cyanobacteria)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

Ron,
So long as the green is the normal plant-green or 'grass-green' of true algae, is there any problem? True algae aren't toxic and are present in most natural water supplies.

If, on the other hand, the green has a blue cast (the blue-green of what we used to call blue-green algae) then it might be best to dispose of the water. For the last 25 years he blue-green algae have been classified as Cyanobacteria and when in excess are responsible for many of the toxic so-called 'algal' blooms on lakes and ponds. I think I am correct in thinking that, although they photosynthesise, they do not produce much, if any, free oxygen. There is usally a dank, unpleasant, clay-like and almost bitter smell with Cyanobacteria as well.

A temporary 'cure' for true algae (not Cyanobacteria) on ponds, is to exclude light for a while. Of course, that doesn't do other plants a lot of good and merely sends the alga(e) into a resting stage(s) from which it(they) will emerge with more light! A surprising amount of light penetrates green Polythene water butts.

If you can be sure you don't have Cyanobacteria I don't think there is a problem. Chemically killing off plant algae probably creates more problems than the algae do. But if you do have Cyanobacteria I'd run it all off and clean out the butts. Have a skim through the following − there are loads more on the web − some more reliable than others;-
http://publications.msss.gouv.qc.ca/acrobat/f/documentation/2005/05-238-01A.pdf
http://tuberose.com/Algae.html
http://www.fiu.edu/~goldberg/coralreefs/Cyanobacteria.htm
Interestingly, some Cyanobacteria are essential symbionts with common plants − Azolla, the 'water fern' lives in close association with the Cyanobacterium Anabaena for example and legumes have similar associations to produce nitrogen so bacteria aren't all-bad!.
(I suspect the blue (green?) touch paper has been lit!)
John

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: email techi query
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

I often receive emails in (say) Arial at size (say) 10. If I reply with the same font at the same size, my response is microscopic by comparison with original message text. In other words, font size isn't exactly what it implies!

Can anybody explain why this is? And does my size 10 microscopic text magically expand for other members to read at the expected size
John?

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] problems!
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

Are the water butts translucent? Algae shouldn't grow unless there is
light. It could of be dissolved copper salts, if the water is in contact
with copper.

For the ants − don't the usual ant traps work? You know, the little
plastic things you place on the ground near to where they are moving. I
usually find them quite effective; they seem to kill off the entire nest.

Ron Newstead wrote:
> In order to ensure a plentiful supply of rainwater I have installed a number
> of water butts. However, in the dry summer that we had been having the water
> started to become green. How can I prevent this without damaging the
> orchids?

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night-another aspect to contemplate.
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

No, I can't really think of any other reason than water retention; but a
complicated mechanism like that doesn't arise out of the blue, it must
have evolved from some mechanism that was useful to the plants in
another way before it became 'CAM physiology'. Perhaps non-CAM plants
have a similar mechanism that serves another purpose?

Unfortunately I have recently demolished the sound system on my computer
and I haven't got around to repairing it yet − too many other things to
do first. But the very thought of a biochemical songbook; alas, the
chemistry course at university is the one thing I have never fully
recovered from − the thought of calculating molecular orbitals still
sends shivers down my spine. I do recall that there is a substance
called arsole, would you believe it; the proof is here on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsole − it is as far as I can spot a
ring-shaped molecule.

John Stanley wrote:
> Thanks for those intelligent thoughts Jan. I had previously contemplated
> the possibility that some orchids were once succulents and in fact there
> are quite a few now that look as they really ought to be from their
> physical features(some of the terete leaved ones for example). As you
> say, once they have evolved down a particular route they don't go back
> although the trait might be evolutionarily re-modified. I believe some
> CAM plants can switch on or off the CAM physiology according to need.
> I've also wondered if CAM physiology could have arisen for reasons other
> than water retention . . but I can't imagine one . . . . can you?
> The real problem is that I don't know which are CAM orchids and which
> aren't. I think I was once told that Cattleyas probably are.
> Maybe the topic is too abstruse for the forum since physiological
> subtleties of even basic photosythesis aren't everyone's cup o' tea
> never mind CAM complexity.
> Even so, it seems worth throwing out a baited line now and again!
> Thanks for your interest. Let's watch this space a while!! (I suspect
> you might be equipped to enjoy
> http://www.csulb.edu/~cohlberg/songbook.html. Right click on
> "Photosynthesis" − or any others − and "save to Target". You should
> then be able to play the file. If you are new to it it'll either fill
> you with biochemical enthusiasm or bore you to tears!)

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] problems!
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

Green water is due to algal growth. A little disinfectant of some kind will
prevent this, without harming the plants. I suggest Physan ( Plants Plus
and other suppliers , maybe Orchid Sundries too) − when 1 teaspoon per
gallon ( 1:1000) should do the trick.

Ants can be a pest , and will build nests in the greenhouse if allowed. If
found, then a kettle of boiling water seems to work. If not found, then
Nippon is a treacle like substance you leave in pools ( the size of a coin ,
e.g. on a scrap pf aluminium foil; ) in places where the ants can find, and
they feed on it and take it back to the nest, and after a few weeks they
have all gone. You may need to repeat the dose every few days for these
weeks,

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] problems!
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

Ron, I use a pinch (or the tip of a nametag ) of Permanganate of potash or Potassium permanganate in each rainwater butt. This just turns the water a pale purple. I know someone willsay that manganese is a toxic metal but this amount is negligable to humans. It was used as a footbath in swimming pools and as a cure for athletes foot and I doubt anyone died from it. Regards

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Green water and ants.
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

When I read your comment about the DRY summer I thought that you must have been sniffing something and that you thought you were back in Portugal.

Green water Ron, I have three plastic water butts, large ones and they all have a lid..........no problem. Also, the rain water that goes into them falls only from the greenhouse roofs. The glass has the normal white shading painted on it. That's about it mate.

As for those blasted ants which I guess many of us have a problem with, I do hope that this year I have found a product that seems to be working, and it is called...............exit right to nip down the garden....................well I'll be damned !!!!! Thanks Ron.....I had not read the label as intently as I have just done and I am delighted to read that it kills just about all crawling nasties. My woodlice may be in for a nasty shock........and then again I have not seen them recently, so maybe this product is the reason why.

I shall be calling in at my local Allotment and Gardening Club store on Sunday to buy a couple more.

The price that I pay is £2.25, but if you buy it from a Garden Centre etc then it may cost a little more, but it sure is worth it.

Hope it does the trick for you, and please let us all know how you get on with it.

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

On 27 June John Stanley wrote:
> I often receive emails in (say) Arial at size (say) 10. If I reply with
> the same font at the same size, my response is microscopic by comparison
> with original message text. In other words, font size isn't exactly what
> it implies!

> Can anybody explain why this is? And does my size 10 microscopic text
> magically expand for other members to read at the expected size?
> John

Might I suggest you use plain text instead of HTML? There seems to be a
breed of email programs e.g. Microsoft Outlook, which produce a tremendous
amount of code in order to force font sizes, layout, etc. instead of
leaving the recipient to display the message in their preferred style. For
instance, a recent message from Geoff contained 452 lines of code to
produce the phrase:

Am I the only one who wonders why this is necessary? Fortunately I don't
see it unless I forget to delete the HTML before preparing the digests.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: missing e-mail
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

Hi Tricia , could you kindly broadcast a message that my mail delivery
service is more unreliable than usual ? If waiting for a reply from me, it's
likely because I didn't get the incoming message.

The reason could be that I have given my ISP 28 days notice. and as and
when ( or maybe I should say if ! ) I can work my way through I will
eventually have new e-mail addresses with talk-talk.

I note that one of the missing messages is one from the present ISP giving
me the MAC number which I was promised I would have a week ago..

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

Thanks Tricia
Will explore how to achieve that asap. . . . . Have just done so and find
that myformat check-box for 'plain text' is, in fact, already ticked
whereas the 'HTML' one isn't. Back to a drawing board somewhere?

In the meantime;
Re; the second hand − should it not be the seconds hand − referring to the
increments of time represented by the relevance of its motion? After all,
the hour and minutes hands aren't referred to as first and second hands!
John

From: S.abeccara
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

I'm definitely in favour of Tricia's suggestion: I see no reason for
needlessly increasing the size of an email message. In the same way as I
don't see why programmes like Word should make a huge file out of a short
text.

Many mailing lists these days simply don't allow for HTML messages (usually
this issue is touched upon in their Netiquette).

From: James H
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] problems!
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

for ants i find diatomatious (sp?) earth works very well especially if you
can find the nest or where they enter the greenhouse and put a thick line
around it and keep the DE dry, its a natural non toxic pesticide.

From: Beccy Holmes
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] problems!
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

>In order to ensure a plentiful supply of rainwater I have installed a
>number of water butts. However, in the dry summer that we had been having
>the water started to become green. How can I prevent this without
>damaging the orchids?

Would simply covering the butts to keep out light do the trick without the
need for chemicals?

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: It's a crying shame.
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

Yesterday I was wandering around a 'Marks & Spencer' shop in Salisbury and I noticed the nice Phalaenopsis that they had for sale. Especially the smaller more compact/petit types. This is at least one way that hopefully more people will become not only interested in orchids but be gobsmacked at how long the flowers last for.

Then I saw about two dozen Miltonias..........what can I say........an absolute disgrace and an insult to the orchids themselves.

I expect that many of us will know how easily it is to bruise the flowers of Miltonias, and by the look at what was on show the handlers did not...........I am sure that will not sale one of them.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

The problem with using plain text is that one is prevented from adding
emphasis or italicising orchid names − both of which are sometimes very
desirable.
Geoff

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night-another aspect to contemplate.
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007

I haven't forgotten the promised url refs Jan, just forgotten which folder I
hid 'em in(doh!). However, thoughts on mp3 files; why not copy them to a CD
and play them in your DVD recorder/player or CD player? Alternatively, can't
you borrow some kid's/youth's/young person's mp3 player and download 'em to
that?

Have you demolished the sound card or just the speakers? If the latter, a
pair of headphones in the green headphone jack-socket . . .or a jack-to-jack
to your amplifier . . . . . . . I'm not getting technical am I?

Alternatively; if it's simpler, I'll put 'em on a CD if you'll tell me where
I can post it!
Now where did I put those damned CAM refs . . . . . . . .

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

Silvio,
Many thanks for your observations on HTML etc. However, what causes your
email to scatter "" liberally through the text!

It looks as though one problem is replaced with another and I suspect that
the rash of ''s in Geoffs emails was a result of changing from HTML.

However, more to the point is how, exactly, one 'switches on' plain text. I
have been having a discussion (non-forum) with Tricia and have a problem in
that whatever I do with check-boxes for the selection of 'plain text',
emails cc-d to myself still arrive as HTML and I think Tricia is puzzled
too.

It is looking as though we need a way of globally switching to plain text
without the '' hieroglyphics that bedevil text like that I have just
received from you!

John
ps In 'format' for this email, 'plain text' is checked. If you receive it as
HTML you will understand my problem!

From: LEONARD HANDLEY
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [potassium permanganate
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

But does it harm the orchid ? If not I would like to add it to the dishes of rainwater in which I stand my orchid pots.
Len

> Ron, I use a pinch (or the tip of a nametag ) of Permanganate of potash
> or Potassium permanganate in each rainwater butt. This just turns the
> water a pale purple. I know someone willsay that manganese is a toxic
> metal but this amount is negligable to humans. It was used as a
> footbath in swimming pools and as a cure for athletes foot and I doubt
> anyone died from it.

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night-another aspect to contemplate.
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

No, no, it's just that I, being of an inquisitive nature always do
things to the operating system, and since I don't really listen to music
on the computer at all, the drivers have got screwed up − this is Linux,
and not just any Linux: it's Gentoo, which means that you can do
anything to the system, but then of course anything might happen. And I
simply don't have CD players and the like, the only music I listen to is
what I play myself. My children would never forgive me if I dared put
'some stupid old rubbish' (read 'proper music') on their gadgets :-)

> Have you demolished the sound card or just the speakers? If the latter,
> a pair of headphones in the green headphone jack-socket . . .or a
> jack-to-jack to your amplifier . . . . . . . I'm not getting technical
> am I?

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

May I recommend that people try out Thunderbird − an excellent mail
program, which certainly can be set up to never send anything but plain
text? And not only that, you can turn off HTML even in the mail you
receive, so that it only displays the text and nothing else.

On top of that, it has an excellent junk mail filter and can filter
emails based on whatever you like; and you can download extensions that
add (possibly) interesting features. It is free, of course.

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

The convention is to *emphasize* with asterisks, or _using_ underscores,
the first implying bold, the second italic.

Geoffrey Hands wrote:
> The problem with using plain text is that one is prevented from adding
> emphasis or italicising orchid names − both of which are sometimes very
> desirable.
> Geoff
>

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] problems!
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

Thanks Dennis for the tip.
But exactly what is it that should worry us about green algae in water other than the aesthetics of seeing it clear?
John

From: Tina Stagg
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] ppm
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

This seems a high concentration to me − I stop at about 300 max micro siemens for most things, a bit higher for phalaenopses, and get results that please me. The fertilizer lasts a lot longer, too. What do other people do?

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] keikis
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

I have just posted a small packet containing two denbdrobes − nobile group
hybrids.

I learnt that there is a National Post Office strike tomorrow − and pondered
taking the packet home, opening it up etc, and then doing it all again on
Monday ; but I was told that it is most likely you will get the packet on
Saturday , so decided to take the risk.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] ppm
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

I don't think that mS can be converted into any volumetric measure !
Or gms per anything − it is a measure of electrical conductivity , the
reciprocal of resistance ( Ohms)

But 300ppm is approximately 1 teaspoon in 3 gallons, if that's what you
want to know ?

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night-another aspect to contemplate.
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

Philip Cribb is coming to Bournemouth Orchid Society to give a talk in
August. However, I think of him as a taxonomic expert , not as a plant
physiology man . It will be interesting to see if he does know anything on
the subject , but I need to read John's briefing paper ( in preparation ? )
before I venture forth on that sea... Points of interest ; the/an authority
for some orchids are CAM plants. A reference to how CAM plants "work"
Maybe a few more points when I think about it a bit more...

> > The classic story relates to succulent plants trying to conserve
> > water by keeping their stomata closed in the heat of the day so why
> > orchids, some living in humid conditions, have this facility I don't
> > understand.
>
> > However, my point here is that there might well be different
> > requirements for CAM orchids compared with 'conventional' ones. Does
> > anybody out there know anything about this topic. I can't help thinking
> > that there must be different temperature-humidy requirements for CAM
> > plants compared with others (cups hands to ears just in case someone
> > knows something). John

> Perhaps they have evolved from species that used to live in more extreme
> environments − some current epiphytes live in conditions where they are
> soaked at some point during the year and then have very little access to
> water for a long period of time. In my experience useful traits, once
> they have evolved never go away entirely (think of the residual 'hind
> legs' you can very occasionally find on whales).

> I haven't heard of any such thing, but I suspect Philip Cribbs of Kew
> would know about it − he very kindly helped me find the best flora to
> the orchids of China once.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

> The convention is to *emphasize* with asterisks, or _using_ underscores,
> the first implying bold, the second italic.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] ppm
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

I'm astonished. I don't want to sound rude, but I simply have difficulty in
believing it ( that 300ppm of anything , absolutely any compound or mixture,
added to deionised water, gives an EC reading of 600mS.)

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Storing rain water.
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

Anyhow, my rain water butts as I stated are plastic, and have lids............no problem. And that's all there is to it.

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night-another aspect to contemplate.
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

Sadly Jan,
One of my greatest regrets in life is that I never learned to play an
instrument when I had a life expectancy of enough to attain a modicum of
competence. Last year I was tempted to a reasonable electronic keyboard
(second hand) which allows me to make piano-like noises through headphones
so that (a) I don't disturb anyone else and (b) I needn't have any
embarrassment before I can really play Bach! Needless to say, at my age,
time passes quicker than scheduled practise times and so I plug myself into
my regular fix of Gould, Heifetz or Tortelier via mp3 or CD as a
substitute.

Now; the urls for CAM (not set to music);
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/53/378/2131 and see
attached which has references to orchids (search orchid as if I need to tell
you!)

I have some others but Word doesn't seem to want to let me have 'em back so
I may have to re-search for 'em.
However, these should keep you busy for a few minutes!
Cheers
John

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007

On 28 June Geoffrey Hands wrote:
> Not many people know that....me included. Can you quote an authority ?

> > The convention is to *emphasize* with asterisks, or _using_
> > underscores, the first implying bold, the second italic.

Also, when my text editor is in email mode _underscores_ indicate
underlining and /slashes/ indicate italics. Don't forget :-) for smileys!
All mentioned on the subscriber information page:

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

Just my experience, I'm afraid, but one aquired from many years of
observation on mail lists, newsgroups, forums etc. The convention is
also used in at least one 'wiki' system (called TWiki) − one of the
charms of wikis is that people can write text on the website without
knowing a lot of HTML code; instead you format text with this kind of
notation. like the asterisks for bold etc.

Geoffrey Hands wrote:
> Not many people know that....me included. Can you quote an authority ?

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

Ah yes, smilies (in the link about netiquette). I read a while back that
in Japan they use for smiling face and for crying, which I
think is quite charming.

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night-another aspect to contemplate.
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

About my music − I didn't say I mastered it :-) but you can't blame a
bloke for trying (unless it it the bagpipes, which I have mercifully
decided against; mine is the lute).

For those of you who have Ant problems − why get rid of them? I have a colony of Lasius niger (the common black ant) that appears in my greenhouse every year. Its my opinion that orchids and ants have a symbiotic relationship − a relationship that benefits both. (I suppose you could call marriage something similar! Sometimes!). In the wild, whenever you see orchids − ants are never far away. How many of you have noticed that watery secretion that the orchids flower spikes exude when they are growing well? This is greatly sought after by ants as a source of food and in return they protect the flower spike (their source of food) from any potentially damaging insects that may want to take a nibble of the actual spike. Whenever I have seen orchids with flower spikes in the wild they have had ants on, feeding on the secretions and guarding them. Interestingly the secretions usually cease as the flowers mature which allows the orchids pollinators to do their job without being chased off! My greenhouse ants are a species that have probably never seen an orchid before but do the same job as their foreign friends!

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

Well Jan,
At least that's progress! In electric typewriter days (IBM Golfball), before
smileys were common, I used to add a smiley made from a colon and a right
parenthesis − but I had to turn the paper sideways to achieve correct
orientation!
John

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Ants
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

Hi Peter,
An interesting observation; would you mind if I do an edited version of that for the next CANWOS Newsletter?

As orchid fanatics, we seem to be hell bent on killing off everything from algae, through liverworts, insects and spiders to molluscs and while some certainly are pests, mealies, scale and spider-mite) especially in our artificial habitats, I am sure we could be a little less handy with the all-blasting blunderbuss! Besides, what would the resident frog feed on?

I suspect some folks imagine ants carry diseases but they have always seemed a pretty fastidious lot to me!

The fact that you grow orchids more seriously than most of us should lend a little more credence to your opinion as well!
John

From: Tony Watkinson
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Ants
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

So pleased that your ants have a symbiotic relationship with orchids. My ants have a symbiotic relationship with mealy bugs!!

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Ants
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

I don't tolerate them in the greenhouse ; in the garden, yes . they are an
important part of the natural world's recycling system.

Mind you , I have found some tending a colony of green aphids on my
wisteria, and they got short measure there.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

I am looking at the piece about netiquette to find further arguments against
it ( some are so obvious as to need no mention ) . However, smilies − which
in general I approve of, especially the coloured blobs like real faces ( and
not like a random collection of keyboard characters) surely need HTML if not
more ? ( I find that they work for me in some sites , like WindowsBBS , but
generally speaking don't work for me.
Geoff

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: HTML etc. with apologies to Star Wars and others
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

Long ago and far away in a distant galaxy when email was young, a
convention of using was established to minimise the appearance of strange
characters (apart from those actually doing the composing) in emails
exchanged between different operating systems. This worked pretty well,
with exception that a common line terminator was not agreed.

The the man on the Clapham Omnibus (aka the Average Joe) decided that this
new-fangled internet thingy looked interesting and got hooked up. By this
time he was used to 'writing' fancy letters on his computer, printing them
and sending them by snail mail. He looked at email and thought, 'Hey this
is boring, why can't I tart it up like my printed stuff?' and they who know
how to make a lot of money heard this and Rich Text etc. was born. The fact
that different operating systems would not be able to display all this
stuff as originally intended was totally ignored.

Bottom line is, you can put in all the fancy stuff you want, just don't
expect everyone to see what you think you wrote. And you will have to put
up with all these strange characters which appear from time to time,
especially with regard to line terminators!

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [potassium permanganate
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

As it is so diluted -a pinch to 100 litres − you would have to make it up separately. I have used this for the last 15 years about every 3 months with no ill effects to me or my plants.Regards

> But does it harm the orchid ? If not I would like to add it to the dishes
> of rainwater in which I stand my orchid pots. Len

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night-another aspect to contemplate.
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

I don't know if there is any definition , or we just say − looks like a
succulent to me...

However, doing some routine stuff in the greenhouse today I handled a
triquetrous oncidium − one of these jobs with almost triangular ( cross
section) leaves, producing short spikes of small but brilliant flowers.
Considered very difficult to keep alive − so rarely seen . This plant is
doing very well grown in Perlite, and hanging up, by the way. But it strikes
me as succulent − those massively thick leaves, short and stubby ...

I also recall Harold Koopowitz − now Editor of the very best orchid journal
(?) The Orchid Digest − and one time co-proprietor of Paphanatics unlimited,
answering a question about how to grow the notoriously difficult limestone
paphs − bellatulum etc , and admitting that they don't keep them long (
"colonies" I have seen in the wild rarely have plants with more than 2 or 3
growths − no branching mats of plants here − so maybe they don't live long
in the wild either ) and advising to "treat them like succulents".

And having had some ideas whilst typing this, I'm off to the greenhouse to
repot some of my limestone paphs into pure Perlte, and try hanging them up.

Ps. John , my Arial 12 point message comes back the same size ? And can
your system do rich text format and is that the problem I wonder ?

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

Sorry Geoff, I can't agree with you about smilies needing HTML. The
keyboard versions are most certainly not random collections of characters -
they are extremely specific and at least you can be reasonably certain that
all who read your messages will see them. The blobby faces will not be seen
by anyone who reads their messages in plain text.

It should be remembered that plain text (including keyboard smilies) is and
always has been the convention for mailing list and newsgroup environments
where many people with several different systems are likely to read your
messages. How you present person-to-person private messages is a whole
different matter and entirely your choice.

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: HTML etc. the second lesson
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

The second lesson from the Gospel according to me and Outlook Express.
Long ago on this planet in this galaxy, before email or even fountain
pens, one C.Linne did a great job in establishing a near-standard
international system of nomenclature. Long after it became accepted, various
commissions, including the ones for botanical nomenclature and zoological
nomenclature, devised standards. Generic and specific names were always to
be quoted in italics, cited authors' names were emboldened with dates, and
so on. Unfortunately, the steam typewriters of the day (even mid 20thC)
could only use one take-it-or-leave-it font (Courier or Prestige Elite)
designed for equi-spacing, and commission officials, clearly, were thinking
about type-set proportionately spaced documents.
Then some bright lad (or lass?) at IBM invented golfball typewriters and
a typist could now change the ball (ad nausiem) as (s)he stumbled across
the scientific names, underlined as a longhand substitute for italics in the
draft copy.
Then came computers, word-processing, 40 then 80 column text, true
descenders (remember?) even with dot-matrix, tractor paper, percussion pins
and ribbons, and then printers (daisywheel) that would do a golfball's job.
Typists were not needed and we could instantly compose scientific perfection
(!?) on our PCs
Eventually, inkjet and laser printers used software to change font
sizes and styles and for the first time in the history of (this) man we
could type and even print what we really wanted readers to see on simple A4
(assuming, of course, that they were living in a similar century and not
across the Pond with legal size paper). Heaven was here on Earth; and
before clog-popping time.
Then came email; not only could we (eventually) type botanically
'legal' documents but we could send pictures of the posies too! We had truly
reached perfection.
But now, the whole system had become too top heavy, the technology tail
wagged the elegant hound and so we must go back to 'asterisking' imagined
italics and putting other hieroglyphics in for emboldening when everything
is going come out like the old typewriter stuff. (We used to call these
'control characters' and actually needed to type 'em in some primitive
wordprocessors (Applewriter ][ for one as I recall)
I can remember when (using an Apple][ I learned the proportional-spacing
codes for an entire font, italics, bold, big etc − what's changed I wonder.
After all, that was a quarter of a century ago!
Of course, there's another way; capture the 'fancy' (ie 'proper') text
and send it as a piccy − or an attached pdf! . Personally, although I joke
about it, I can cope with the occasional ""s except when they exceed in
number the words of the text. I only mention it when it suddenly occurs so
that the writer is aware, having made a change for the 'better'!.
Fortunately, in Orchid-Talk, most of us can recognise a plant name when
we see it and imagine it in italics, thus using our inbuilt temporal
computers to great effect. We can cope with plain text and if life is made
easier for the admin of the forum, fine! But it isn't that we *want* 'fancy'
or decorative text − just that our lunatic ramblings look more credible if
they appear in the same style as the page of a prestigious journal!!!!!!!
The third lesson. . . digital graphical telepathy?

ps. Please don't take me *too* seriously Tricia; I do appreciate what you
are trying to do! It just brings to mind the Goons . . "I'm walking
backwards for Christmas". Remember? Ah, those were the days. When we pushed
the electrons along one by one with our forefingers. . (almost!)

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: HTML etc. the second lesson
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night-another aspect to contemplate.
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

Oh dear Geoff,
HTML to plain text has doubled the emails, Ireckon that if we bring in rich text that'll quadruple 'em. Incidentally, as I type this at 10, your 12 is half the size!

Succulents; one definition I've just looked up is plants with succulent stems and leaves, usually CAM plants !

Another, from the web, mentions water storage and suggests CAM physiology as a common characteristic.

Certainly, it isn't a taxonomic category; there are succulent forms of many normally non-succulent plants. I grow a succulent Pelargonium for example. There are also no succulent crassulas.

My botanist friends don't seem to have a hard and fast definition; like most properties there seem to be degrees of 'succulence' (I don't mean that in the succulent eating sense of course!), but that's one would expect with any natural property.
John

From: Barbara Larimer
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

When in doubt, consult Wikkipedia. Apparently these standard usage
shortcuts arose with the telegraph. Follow this link for a crosscultural
history of the emoticon.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Ants
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

I don't want them in the house − one reason for leaving our Cotswold home
was that as an ex-hay barn, it was absolutely des res for spiders . But even
so, I only resorted to the vacuum cleaner in order to get them from the
(exposed)_rafters − since it gave me an extra 6 ft of reach. Elsewhere, it
was a pooter , and discharge into the garden.

I always regard spiders as friendly , and useful. Only a pest if the web is
unhygienc and unaesthetic , and its never that in the garden, even if it
always is, inside the dwelling house − as opposed to glasshouse.

They catch little flies − and little flies have little larva which break
down compost...they also catch moths which have larva which eat holes in
leaves.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

Thankyou Tina and Geoff. I understand why ppm cannot always be translated into ms. as all chemicals have different conductivity but I have just mixed 5ml ( one teaspoonful) of calcium nitrate in 1 1/2 imp. gallons of rain water. The rainwater here gives a base reading of 10 ms. After 1 hour and thorouhgly stirring the reading was 650 ms. meaning that 1 teasp. in 1 1/2 gals. increades the ms. by 640. This means that 1 teasp. of Calcium nitrate in 3 gals. ( 300ppm ) would increase the conductivity by 320 ms.
Thankyou both. Regards fro a Devon where the sun has shon today.

From: Tina Stagg
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] ppm
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

I'm still working on this one but, in the meantime, I wrote microSiemans, uS, Geoff, not milliSiemans, mS.

> I'm astonished. I don't want to sound rude, but I simply have
> difficulty in believing it ( that 300ppm of anything , absolutely any
> compound or mixture, added to deionised water, gives an EC reading of
> 600mS.)

Here is a picture of my three Paph bits with no roots. One is now planted upside down in fresh moss. Thenext is in nornal moss, perlite and bark while the third has been dipped in Baby Bio Roota and planted in moss and perlite. I willkeep you all informed if anything happens.
Regards

From: Ron Newstead
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Ants
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007

How are things going in Thailand? If I weren't so old and fragile, I would
be signing up for another of your tours.

From: Max Redman
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Pot.Permanganate
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007

Hi Folks,
Saw the enquiries re. Pot.Permanganate.
I use it when I am fertilizing my orchids. I use it about three times per
year and use sufficient to colour the water/fertilizer a pale pink.
I have done so for a number of years and there has been absolutely no
problem with any of them.
I was put on to it several years ago by an old orchid grower who swears it
helps to prevent fungus attacks.
I also use it on roses.
Cheers
Max

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: email techi query
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007

Smilies don't need need HTML − when you see them as little faces of
various descriptions it is the mail program that interprets the sequence
of characters and replaces it with an image. Some programs (eg the
popular MSN) allow you to create new smilies by associating a picture
with any sequence of characters you like, sometimes with startling effect.

I can see why people would like to use HTML when they write − it looks
prettier, at least to the person writing it, but when you write to other
people it should also be of some significance that the recipients read
it, and simple, plain text ensures that, even if it looks crude and
inexpressive.

Geoffrey Hands wrote:
> I am looking at the piece about netiquette to find further arguments against
> it ( some are so obvious as to need no mention ) . However, smilies − which
> in general I approve of, especially the coloured blobs like real faces ( and
> not like a random collection of keyboard characters) surely need HTML if not
> more ? ( I find that they work for me in some sites , like WindowsBBS , but
> generally speaking don't work for me.
> Geoff
>

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature at night-another aspect to contemplate.
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007

The group of succulent plants, I believe, is fairly well defined − see
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succulent

I often find that scientists take a common word and 'sharpen it up' a
bit, and suddenly its scientific meaning is something rather different
from what you would have guessed.

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Drop in temperature OOPS!
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007

Ooooooooops!
For "There are also no succulent crassulas. read There are also none-succulent crassulas ". The no wasn't followed by the ne! ( Cordless mouse I guess) although whether or not they're CAM is another issue!
John

> Thankyou Tina and Geoff. I understand why ppm cannot always be translated
> into ms...

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Put it down to my age
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007

I had forgotten that my new meter was a Total Dissolved Solids Meter NOT aConductivity Meter.
Starting with 1 1/2 gallons of rain water at a ppm of 10 I added a teaspoonful (5ml) of calcium nitrate, which after stirring well gave a TDS of 650 ppm. This confirms Geoff's 1 teaspoon in 3 gallons (imp) gives 300ppm. Now to get conductivity you just multiply by two, so 300ppm is 600us or 0.6EC (whatever that is)
This explains a lot as many of my orchids last year devoloped black ends to the leaves − I was using twice the strength I should.
Apologies to all for the confusion. Regards from a soaking wet Devon

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] ppm
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007

S conductivity. PPM parts per million. Not sure whether the parts are
number of molecules, or a ratio by weight or by volume − whatever − it does
not affect my thinking.

Take pure water − conductivity so low we can call it nil. Mix in a colloidal
suspension of say gold particles ( excellent conductor) − conductivity will
be excellent or high or a lot of mS muS or any other S.

Then do the same with Copper − conductivity v.g − not quite as good as gold
- hence , all other things being equal -good, but lower mS etc reading.

Now do it with Calcium − lower yet and lower ( sounds like a hymn) -
conductivity poorer still.

Incidentally, there does not appear to be a true TDS (totally dissolved
solids − with a read-out in PPM) meter . Hanna say − if you read their
technical stuff carefully , reading also between the lines, that they make
a conductivity meter , take an average factor of conversion ( I think they
use 1.6 which corresponds to that appropriate for, if I remember it
correctly, Ca.Cl or Ca CO3 or something like that ) and use that as the read
out. You can say, yes, it is not accurate, but most guys using TDS meters
ain't scientists anyway , and if they are always using it to mix their
Tomorite and nothing else, then the errors cancel out.

However, this brings to mind the fact that even TDS meters only work on
ionic compounds. Which is where any meter falls down with orchid growers
who buy cheap fertilisers from the supermarket etc − the cheap ones use urea
bases for the N supply − and ammonia is not ionic − gives no reading. You
can burn the roots off an orchid using urea , and according to your meter
the EC is too low to worry about !

> I'm still working on this one but, in the meantime, I wrote microSiemans,
> uS, Geoff, not milliSiemans, mS.

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] HTML. etc. (was Drop in temperature...)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007

On 29 June John Stanley wrote:
> Oh dear Geoff,
> HTML to plain text has doubled the emails, Ireckon that if we bring in
> rich text that'll quadruple 'em. Incidentally, as I type this at 10, your
> 12 is half the size!

Absolutely. Your message arrived here as HTML − so although you may have
read Geoff's message in plain text your reply retained the format he sent.
Also liberally sprinkled with s, one cause of which appears to be the
way in which SmartTags are interpreted by the server. It could explain too
why Geoff's messages often appear here to have double spacing between lines
and three or four spaces between paragraphs. Mind you, that makes it easier
to read than no spaces at all!

When this exchange started the intention was to find out how to fix your
font problem. Is it still there?

Having thoroughly thrashed the subject it appears that we have several
views on the list about plain text versus HTML, varying from who cares?,
plain text is best to plain text is archaic.

I've requested several times that messages be sent in plain text but it
will only work if everyone complies. Clearly this is unlikely so we will
just have to put up with unusual characters from time to time (well, we
*are* orchid enthusiasts!) and move on before people unsubscribe in droves.

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] HTML. etc. (was Drop in temperature...)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007

Agreed! I'll do my best but, as I've just appreciated − even ticking the
plain text doesn't achieve the result and I don't want to give up the
option.
Cheers
John

> Having thoroughly thrashed the subject it appears that we have several
> views on the list about plain text versus HTML, varying from who cares?,
> plain text is best and plain text is archaic.
>
> I've requested several times that messages be sent in plain text but it
> will only work if everyone complies. Clearly this is unlikely so we will
> just have to put up with unusual characters from time to time (well, we
> *are* orchid enthusiasts!) and move on before people unsubscribe in
> droves.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Micro whatevers and meters/yards of conductivity.
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007

As the weather here in England is rain, rain and more rain, I thought that I would try to cheer some of our members, and myself up a bit.

I have sat quietly by, reading all the references to measuring water and feed and all of the mind boggling information that members have sent in.

Being just a 'simple' country lad, known as an 'ampshire 'og........them being strong in the arm and thick in the 'ead, I just wondered if I can still be allowed to grow my orchids by just chucking a few measures of liquid fertiliser into a bucket of rainwater?

I do like that 'Tomorite' stuff that comes in plastic containers, and also I do go a bit on that there seaweed stuff..........Maxicrop Original.

Don't understand all that con-fusion stuff about micro whatever and then measuring the length of the damned thing!!!!!

Wouldn't pay out for any of that gear either, ''specially as I'm a bit tight fisted being 'Son-of-Jock. You can always tell a tight-fisted person..........they got large nostrils, 'cos airs free!

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: some new flowers in my greenhouse...all in 100% guaranteed plain text....apart fro

MONTH	DATE	DATE	DATE	DATE	MONTH	DATE	DATE	DATE	DATE
January	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31	February	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-28
March	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31	April	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-30
May	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31	June	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-30
July	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31	August	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31
September	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-30	October	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31
November	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-30	December	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31

2007 Archived Messages

June 22—30