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From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Neem oil − principles and practice
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:15

Thanks for your comments on Neem oil. What seems like a month or so ago (!) I sent the following enquiry to either this forum or Orchid Digest and got the subsequent reply from Paul Johnson − an entomologist with whom I have discussed mealy matters before (and have been corrected over my former misconception that they have a flying stage − they don't!). As you can see, my interest here was in an apparent conflict of principles when wanting to block spiracles yet not stomata. You (and other forum members) may find it of interest.

Paul works, I think, at the industrial research level and advocates mineral oil − not Neem oil − from experience and, I think, economics. However, it's the mechanism that's interesting.

I have hesitated to provide his email but, if you are interested in the horse's mouth, I will ask him if he has any objection to my passing it on. I am sure he knows what he's talking about!

Can anyone out there help me to understand why it is that the application of oil emulsions (Neem, sunflower, mineral oil) is supposed to block insect and arachnid spiracles and yet not harm the plant leaves and their stomata? Maybe plants' stomatal pores are too big to be blocked as easily as insects' spiracle pores. (?) Ideas anyone?

As animals, insects and arachnids suffocate faster due to their relatively higher respiratory rates and oxygen needs. When applied the oils spread over the arthropod bodies and suffocate them before the oils breakdown from action of the surfactants and micro-organismal activities. Basically, the oils breakdown during the interval between suffocating the arthropod and suffocating the plant. Plants do suffer from being sprayed with oils, but most of the chemical damage is from the surfactants − which is why most household or industrial detergents are too strong to use − or secondary physical actions such as lenticular burning. Typically, the oils breakdown or are washed from the plant before suffocation occurs. Suffocation of the plant requires more time than the arthropods but will happen if the oils are applied too heavily or if they thicken after application − another reason to use quality mineral or vegetable oils and appropriate surfactants.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: One and two leaved Cattleyas.
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:10

The species Cattleyas either have one or two leaves. That's how Mother Nature made them. Then the hybridists came along and started to cross them.

So, that's how, on the same plant, you will often see a bulb with one leaf and next to it a bulb with two leaves.

As to the sometimes strange habit that infuriates us all about the lack of flowers, I have a group of Cattleyas that are all showing good growths and some are in sheath........but just one of the plants just stands there looking at me !!!!!

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Neem Oil and scale
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:20

Sorry Ron − my pharmacist got it for me three or four times, then said that
the wholesaler was out of stock , and each time I ask, I get no joy . I
suspect that there is some hidden reason − maybe he has to sign forms or get
me to sign them , and doesn't want to bother. And I can't see another
pharmacist locally ( apart from Boots − who are unlikely to be helpful I
think ) But whatever the reason , I have gone back to meths, and use it
50:50 with water now .

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Beaming out − brains and blue orchids.-UV and IR
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:25

BTW John , there has been a lot of discussion about digital capture of IR
images in the Digit forum ( of RPS) ; also of firms who will professionally
remove the IR filter from the CCDs of digital cameras.

It seems that Nikon Coolpix ( I think it is the 5300 model) is the
preferred one for modification − some members even talk of a DIY job. And I
did get told of the last Minolta ( not 100% sure that I have the marquee
right , here , but could find it , if of interest ) digital camera which had
no IR filter , and is therefore ideal for IR photography , and I shopped for
one on e-bay − found one in Atlanta − Buy Now price $10 but the shipping
costs etc and dealing with a private buyer who asked for dollar bills in the
mail, deterred me − and I really have enough projects on my "one day I'll do
this" board without adding another...

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Neem oil − principles and practice
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:25

This is very interesting indeed ; but does your correspondent go as far as
saying what oil might be used, and what surfactants ?

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Neem oil − principles and practice
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:35

Hi Geoff,
Thanks for your responses re IR-UV and Neem etc.
Will follow up asap. Just finishing off this month's CANWOS Newsletter for tonight's meeting!
Cheers
John

From: Peter Fowler
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Neem Oil and scale
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:45

I find the smaller pharmacies were always more helpful but with IPA and the
"troubles" we have it is probably a banned substance. Stop press**** Just
phoned my local pharmacy and he can get me 2 lt bottles of it, but did not
have a price. But he knows I have a degree in Chemistry, and knows me very
well.
We have a lot of small pharmacies in Alton, Hants, apart from the large
ones, so I will phone around.
I don't actually need it for orchids as I have given up growing, due to poor
health, but need it for my stamp collecting.

Anyone interested in buying my very large 5 volume reprint of Lindenia, the
English translation. Hundreds of coloured plates with descriptions of the
plants.

I paid UKP600 for them but will let them go for UKP450 +P&P.
Each volume weighs 3kg, so I would mail them in 5 separate packages. If you
could pick them up then you would save a lot of money.

I also have 3 CD-ROMS to sell. Vol 1,2 &3 of Flora Malaysian, Orchids of
Papua New Guinea.
Vol. 4 has just come out.

Price for 3 volumes CD's UKP65 +P&P. Not very heavy.
Best wishes.
Peter Fowler Alton, UK

From: James H
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Neem Oil and scale
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:00

here in canada isopropyl alcohol is avalable at every grocery store and
pharmacy, its used for bedsores and as a dissinfectant.
its also used to make extracts of certian herbs.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Neem Oil and scale
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 17:55

I always knew I ought to go and live in Canada , but it's a long way back to
visit my kids/grandkids etc..

But have been thinking of a trip to see the Canadian Rockies, ending at
Vancuver , maybe next late summer..

here in canada isopropyl alcohol is avalable at every grocery store and
pharmacy, its used for bedsores and as a dissinfectant.

From: mojca klancic
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Mojca's Cattleyas.
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:20

Good evening to all,
the name of my plant is Blc. Royal Oaks. I water it with tap wather, which I suspect could cause trouble. Our water have a lot of mineral salts, that's why I decided to invest in a reverse osmose system.I found one seller on ebay.de which offered the system and the fliters for three years with shipping for 120 Euro. I will be able to tell you if it really makes a difference in a couple of months. The white spots on the leaves are caused by foliar fertilisation (wright word?).
Rocky, I live in Logatec, Slovenia.You can see the position of my country on the picture slo2, while the more detailed slo1 shows youLogatec, where I live, it is licated on the SW of Ljubljana.
Geoff, I have read somewhere about a hundred killings. The one that haven't yet killed a hundred orchids cannot tell of himself to be an expert. I am not close to be an expert, but counting and gthering experience. Sadly, the poor innocent plants take the short end.
Sharon, as had explained Geoff very nicely, the Lady of the night produced the flower spike on the tip og the PB. I found it interesting, that the flowering PB produced two leaves, while the others have only one. The plant stands in bright light. The flower spikes emerged soon after the temperatures dropped drastically. After the summer heat I suddenly had to wear long sleeves.
Wishing you all lots of healty flowering plants,
Mojca from Slovenia

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Neem oil versus Provado.
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:40

I read with much interest the chat about Neem oil. I read up much on Neem oil and I did purchase some. Mixed it and used one of my sprayers.

I mixed it same as Neem oil and used one of my sprayers................but not any more.

I now buy the Provado Ultimate Bug Killer in ready made 1 Litre plastic spray bottles, trigger operated. Same as hundreds of other mixes in the similar type spray bottles.

The thing is this: It's ready to use whenever you need it. Keep it in the greenhouse or wherever you want to.

The bonus is that it produces such a wonderful fine spray, and you can direct it straight on to the target.

Recently I was giving a talk on Orchid Culture, and I always try to take a few plants with some ailments or bugs to show people. I could not find a single plant with any mealy bugs on them.

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Neem oil versus Provado.
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 23:50

Hi Rocky and all,
We too think quite highly of Provado (and don't go overboard on Neem oil although we have a bottle somewhere!) but our experience is not quite as is yours.
We think the concentrate, for self-mixing is best and (I think) is compositionally different from the 'ready-mixed (although I can't honestly say that either is more toxic than the other if the concentrate is freshly diluted). What we find infuriating about the ready solution is that the spray bottles are very poorly designed and the liquid dribbles onto one's hands and down sleeves and drips off the bottom of the bottle unless transferred to a good sprayer, a chore nearly as inconvenienet as making up a mix from concentrate.
Maybe we have been unfortunate with the bottles we've bought but using them really is a gloved-handed job and a gloved finger is not trigger-happy!
John Stanley

From: James H
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Neem Oil and scale
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 00:40

why stop in vancouver come over to vancouver island its the best part of
canada, anyone who visits has to go to longbeach tofino at least once, as
well as victoria, there are alot of orchid growers there, and quite a few
are shown at buchart gardens.

On 9/22/06, Geoffrey Hands wrote:
>
> *I always knew I ought to go and live in Canada , but it's a long way
> back to visit my kids/grandkids etc.*
>
> *But have been thinking of a trip to see the Canadian Rockies, ending at
> Vancuver , maybe next late summer. *

From: Gordon Walker
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Neem oil versus Provado.
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 10:30

I also read somewhere that chemical changes take place in Provado concentrate after 24 hours when mixed with water and liquid soap, but I don't have enough knowledge to elaborate. Does this not indicate that the ready mixed spray will have a stronger concentrate of liquid soap and water in it?
Gordon.

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Neem Oil and scale
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 14:35

Geoff,
I can see it now; there's this well dressed elegant gentleman with an orchid in his button-hole and honest face at Vancouver check-in with a couple of Winchesters of isopropyl parcelled up.
Check-in attendant; "Could you open that parcel sir?
. . . . . And what do these bottles contain?
. . . . . . Ahhhh! I see, you like your in-flight burger flambed ?
. . . . . . Do you need a match or two, Sir?
. . . . . . Have a good flight.
Oh, just a moment Sir; I'm afraid I can't allow that pencil Sir.
Could be used as a weapon I'm afraid!
And you do have a phytosanitary certificate for the orchid? . . .
Fine. Bon voyage"
John

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Provado sprayer.
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:15

So far I have not had any drips from my Provado trigger action sprayer, nor does it run onto my hand on fingers. I will say that this is so much easier to use than to have to make up a mix.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Mojca's Cattleyas.
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:20

Nothing that you are doing is so very wrong.........many thousands of orchid growers are doing the same.

If you log on to: orchidhub.com you will be able to see a picture of your BLC. Royal Oaks.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Help required.
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:45

I purchased my plant of Epidendrum Stamfordianum about four or five years ago, and it is one of those plants that has just sat there, looked at me and done nothing but put up some new growths.

It was going very well but then some of the leaves went quite brown and hard. Also some of the bulbs have died, but are still on the plant as you can see.

Now this plant is supposed to throw its flower spikes from the base of the bulb which I was hoping to see, but no such luck.

I am just hoping that it will throw a couple of new growths, and if and when, I will cut away the old brown ones.

No doubt we all say the same thing many times: It stands beside many other plants that are doing what they should do. !!!!! ?????

From: mojca klancic
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Help required.
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 07:35

I have a Cambria behaving in the similar way without a visibble reason. It stands on the windowsill with all the other healthy plants. I believe it must have had a cultivation shock in the past and became sensitive. I repoted it, cut off the rotten old PB, than it grew new healthy growths and now there are new problems with it. I will repot it again and hope for the best. I hope we will save our plants.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Neem oil versus Provado.
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 08:25

My local Garden Centre sells this ( Provado ready mixed) often under names
such as ‘Bug-Killer’ or something similar , in large plastic cans (‘2
litre or is it more than that ?) with an attached flexible tube and the
pump action spray thing on the end , and there is no dribble that I’m aware
of, but all the plastic bits are very cheap and nasty and the thing goes
wrong so often that I usually throw the can away part-full.

And I’m never sure whether it has killed anything or not ! If it’s a
scale insect , and sits there, and you spray it and its still there „ is it
alive or dead ? Probably alive, because its waxy shield protects it from
mere sprays . But give it a little wipe with a cotton wool ball dipped in
meths/water, and it its not there any more „ its on the cotton wool ( and
goes back into the jam jar containing the solution, to pickle nicely thank
you, until its time to take the cotton wool out to deal with the next one.

My philosophy is that repeatedly spraying the whole of a healthy plant with
poison is not going to do the plant a lot of good ; therefore best to deal
with nasties individually. Of course there may be ones which have been
missed, and/or eggs lurking , which is I suppose the reason for spraying the
whole plant ; but if I’m going to spray whole plants then I don[t want to
use a hand-action pump sprayer , its too tiring „ I’ll use my electric pump
operated watering lance, with a fine spray jet on the end „ which is what I
referred to when mentioning how many litres to spray the whole house.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Help required.Epi. stamfordianum
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 08:30

It’s an orchid which I admire, when well flowered, and I have owned plants
several times, but never flowered them well , if at all . I asked Andrea
Niessen of Orquidvalle to bring me plants of both the usual form and also
forma rosea, when she came over to London in July, and have started new
growths since. I believe she told me it likes to be grown warm „ with my
cattleyas she said . We’ll see !

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Two questions.
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:15

I have similar thoughts about my Epidendrum Stamfordianum and later today I may re-pot it and see what I can make of it.

I have often wondered that as the Phalaenopsis that we have here in the U.K. were most probably grown in Holland, or in Europe from many generations of parents, do they to some extent 'climatise' themselves.

Meaning, can they stand slightly lower temperatures. Especially as they have no idea of the tropical weather. Just a thought.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: CITES.
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:20

If an orchid nursery, shall we say in Miami, Florida produced their plants in their own laboratory and they were all hybrids and they mailed some plants to a customer in Seattle would the customer have to have a CITES piece of paper?????

So, the big question that I would love to have an answer to is, would the customer have to apply for a CITES permit.?????

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Epidendrum Stamforianum 'Cambria'.
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:10

Thanks for your comments on the Epidendrum Stamfordianum. It sure makes me feel a lot better knowing that this plant does not appear to be that easy to get to flower.

Just a couple of hours ago, I did re-pot my plant after a bit of drastic bit necessary surgery.

There was quite a solid mass of roots that were all almost dead, and in that state they hold far too much moisture, so I cut all of them away. My belief is that when I purchased this plant and repotted it I should have removed any dodgy roots at that time.

Anyhow, I now have a plant with just four pseudobulbs, no roots, but with three good visible eyes, and, wait for it, one very fat eye which may just be the start of a flower spike............fingers and legs crossed.

Mojca, you mention your plant 'CAMBRIA'. I would hope that everybody agrees with me when I say that this name is just one that the Dutch growers 'invented'. I don't blame them as it's their business to sell as many plants as they can, and if they put the real name of the hybrid on the label it would cost to much, and 'Cambria' is much easier for the public to remember.

Can you give us the name of your Cambria, maybe send a photo, and what you think is wrong with it.

From: Barbara Larimer
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] CITES.
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 14:50

Rocky, I have ordered plants from Florida, Oregon and Puerto Rico. I have
not had to get a CITES permit. I live in southwestern Pennsylvania.

This debate reminds me of the moving with a pet issue. I had some friends
who re-located to Hawaii, and others who moved to the UK. They had to board
their animals at a quarantine facility for an inordinant amount of time -
like 8-12 weeks! They reported it was to prevent diseases (rabies in
particular) from being introduced into a land where it didn't exist. Ok,
point taken. BUT, that system is archaic. It might have been the necessary
method decades ago but not with testing and technology available today. Is
CITES a similar dinosaur system?

On the other side of the coin, and there always is one. I read about 2
months ago, somewhere in the international press, that breeders in Hawaii
and Denmark? − not sure about the European countries involved were lobbying
for STRICTER enforcement and interpretation of CITES, especially from Asia
(Taiwan in particular). The bottom line seemed to be that Taiwan is/has
become the leading exporter of orchid plants and is encroaching upon their
sales.

So while you use logic and common sense, it appears that others are banging
the drum in opposition and trying use the system to protect thier market
interests. Debate on an issue tends to lend validity to it. What's a
bureaucrat or a politician to do? (Are there orchid lobbyists? Oh, I must
find out!! Wouldn't that be a dream job?!!)

I could probably find the links for the orchid stories above if you are
interested.

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] CITES.
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:20

At a recent (Friday) meeting of our orchid soc, one of our members, a dealer, informed us that there has now been some relaxation of certain hybrids and that the 'system' seems more concerned with the phytosanitary side of things. I'll try to get better info and pass it on although there may be others in the forum who are ahead of me.
Cheers
John

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Neem oil versus Provado.
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 17:15

Hey Geoff,
What's all this AOAO stiuff − have I caught it from you or what?
Your mail, this time, is free from hieroglyphics bur i notice mine has 'em
in abundance. Is that how you received it?
I'm impressed with the thought of an electric spray lance! Next best thing
to a laser gun!
You'll be telling us all next that you 'get a man in' to do the job!
That's cheating!
Cheers
John

My local Garden Centre sells this ( Provado ready mixed) often under
names
such as 'Bug-Killer' or something similar...

Hi Rocky and all,
A0A0A0A0A0 We too think quite highly of Provado (and don't go
overboard on Neem
oil although we have a bottle somewhere!) but our experience is not
quite as
is yours...

From: Ron Bower
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Neem oil versus Provado.
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:10

This Neem oil, Mineral oil, Provado matter has been raised before, and not
that long ago I think when Geoff had his scale problem.. I speak as an ex
pro grower, but not of Orchids. It is probable not possible to coat every
insect by using a sprayer, you can't get into the compost and in my day
smokes were the only certain way, now systemics are the best and most
certain method. Provado is very effective and as I have warned before it
will mark the leaves of some plants, including some types of Orchid if used
too strong. Safer to use the ready mixed method. I understand the oils
suffocate the Mealy bug but that eggs can still hatch.
Ronbow.

From: Sharon Williams
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Mojca's Cattleyas.
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 03:25

Is it normal to only get spiking from psbulbs with two leaves for B nodosa?
Sharon in Calgary

From: Max Redman
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Two questions.
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 07:05

Hi Rocky,
Out here we have a series of orchid seedlings called tropic-cool which are actually, where a plant from say, PNG, is crossed with one from Australia. This has the advantage of bringing the heat required for the PNG plant down by a few degrees and enables one to grow them out here in the bushouse.
Perhaps the same thing has happened with the phalenopsis.
Cheers
Max

From: John Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Neem oil ?
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 14:50

Hi Paul,
I couldn't recall to which orchid forum you subscribe but, clearly, you responded as appropriate to the email I am using for this 'reply'.

The old chestnust of Neem vs Provado has reared its head again and I took the liberty of quoting some of your comments in response to my other query about spiracles and stomata and relative vulnerability to oils. A punchline in your response was that domestic detergents are inappropriate for emulsifying the oils so;

given that Provado has its followers (whether for the ready-mixed or the concentrate) and that oil applications have their followers, could you state in the vernacular what is meant by mineral oil of good quality? Are we talking kerosene (paraffin) whether the equivalent of diesel or heating fuel? Or the more refined 'lamp oil'? Or light lubricating oil (3-in one for example) or what?

As for the non-industrial (ie not Teepol?) or non-domestic (not Fairy Liquid) detergent; what would we ask for and where might we ask for it? So many proprietory detergents have additives galore from (allegedly) egg, lemon, beer, peach, glycerine and, in the case of shampoos, I suspect some additive that turns the water grey to make you think your hair really was filthy before you shampooed it!
(I built quite an appetite listing 'em!).

Best wishes John
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Johnson
To: Orchid Talk List
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:59 AM
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Neem oil ?

Hello John, Geoff, et al.,
Neem oil is not quite snake oil like Superthrive, but sometimes it gets marketed in a similar manner. Neem oil can be found in a number of formulations with or without azadiractin [also spelled azadirachtin]. Refined forms of the oil, an extract of the neem tree, have various impurities removed, including azadiractin. In this form neem oil is not functionally different from other horticulturally safe light oils, i.e., it will kill insects by suffocation if applied appropriately. Forms of the oil that are at various grades of purification will have various concentrations of azadiractin and other compounds found in the original extract. Azadiractin, a triterpenoid, itself is used as a growth regulator pesticide on various insects.

In the U.S. most commonly sold brands of "horticultural oil" are actually a mineral oil. This works well. I have had various people recommend, and I believe some of the organic gardening manuals recommend, various vegetable oils such as corn oil, canola oil, etc., for pest control on house plants an in veggie gardens. One orchid grower in Puerto Rico once insisted upon using only the best extra-virgin olive oil for his prized plants!

All the oils work the same way: dilute in water with a surfactant [many people will use a mild liquid dish soap, though a commercial spreader usually used with oily pesticides will work better], and spray. The critical aspects involve getting a good coating of oil over the pests, thus the proportions of oil, water, and detergent just right for the particular oil. Though the oil coating will suffocate the insect, or mite, there is probably a bit of dessication from the surfactant, too. Too much surfactant will thin the oil too much, while too little or the wrong match to the oil of choice will not provide proper spreading of the oil. Also, the plants need to be thoroughly coated, so sometimes dipping may be a better option than spraying. And, like pesticides, there should be at least three applications 10-14 days apart to catch hatchlings.

As to the Provado, I am not sure why there might be problems with its use. The active ingredient is imadicloprid, which is normally very effective against mealybugs and scale insects. Other than double-checking the rate or thoroughness of application, or the quality of water used [some pesticides do lose potency with hardwater], I am a bit baffled. One thing to remember is that scales will remain on the plants after death, so in many cases rubbing or brushing their carcasses off the plants may be necessary.

Now, as to the finger nails. . . I do rather miss the old chalkboards in my lecture rooms. . . :) :)

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] CITES -?some relaxation
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:35

Hi Everyone,
I have been shown the following text of a recent CITES document. Several of you may be interested;

"In case of trade in flowering state the following orchid hybrids are exempt from CITES regulations:
Cymbidium, Phalaenopsis and Vanda: Interspecific hybrids within the genus and intergeneric hybrids.
Dendrobium: Interspecific hybrids within the genus known in horticulture as nobile-types and phalaenopsis-types.

1) Plants are traded in flowering state with at least one open flower per specimen, with reflexed petals.
2) Plants are professionally processed for commercial retail sale e.g. they are labelled with printed labels and are packed with printed packages.
3) Plants can be recognized as artificially propagated specimens; they exhibit a high degree of cleanliness, undamaged inflorescences, intact root systems and a general absence of damage or injury that could be attributed to plants originating in the wild.
4) Plants do not exhibit characteristics of wild origin, such as damage by insects or other animals, fungi or algae adhering to the leaves or mechanical damage to inflorescences, roots, leaves or other parts resulting from collection.
5) Labels or packages indicate the trade name of the hybrid, the country of artificial propagation or, in the case of international trade during the production process, the country where the specimen was labelled and packaged and, the labels or packages show a photograph of the flower, or demonstrate by other means the appropriate use of labels and packages in an easily verifiable way."

Hope this is of interest/use. Some of you may be able to add to this. I have to say that, apart from EC, I have no great experience in importing but I know several who have.

There are another set of conditions for permit free import of the same hybrids out of flower but apply to a minimum of twenty plants of any one variety and so are more applicable to commercial growers.

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Is John Stanley a time traveller?
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:20

Your most recent emails are dated October 2001. Have you been reading too
much H.G. Wells? :-)

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Is John Stanley a time traveller?
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 13:25

Interesting; I can barely recall 2001 let alone time travel back there!
On the other hand, there are some who consider our orchid house to be a
Tardis; much bigger inside than you'd believe from outside!
However, my machine clearly has very fond memories of 2001 because no matter
how I reset the date it flirts back as if it's trying to tell me something.
Maybe I'm a ghost* and my clock stopped ticking back then . . but the date
wouldn't change at all then, would it.
I'll have another go but my computing skills are fast departing!
(As you so aptly say; "The older you get, the better you realize you were.")
John

* If "You can't take it with you", howcome ghosts are always portrayed as
dressed?"

I keep re-setting my time-date details but my machine seems to have a mind
of its own in this connection

From: Peter Fowler
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Neem oil ?
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:55

I use the concentarted Neeem Oil, which you have to dilute, 3-6 ml/l. The organic people use it and the pot growers in Holland, which is where I bought mine from, over the internet.
It is an extract from the neem seeds{ of Melia azedarach}.
www.nirvana.nl
It is not very expensive.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Stamp.
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:00

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: CITES.
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:50

Thanks to John's article,
At a recent (Friday) meeting of our orchid soc, one of our members, a dealer, informed us that there has now been some relaxation of certain hybrids and that the 'system' seems more concerned with the phytosanitary side of things. I'll try to get better info and pass it on although there may be others in the forum who are ahead of me. we can at least see that some sense is beginning to prevail. I would be very glad to receive any more information when it comes to hand.

Barbara, I did read somewhere that Taiwan has 'special' treatment because maybe there was some sort of agreement between that island and the U.S.A. which infuriated Hawaii. This type of thing seems to be more about MONEY than protecting an endangered species.

Kew Gardens did answer a couple of my E-mails and I thanked them for their response. They stated that they were not really the people who could help and they suggested that I contact DEFRA. Trouble is that I have been down that line before and I was met with an ignorant answer. Not an ignorant person, but I suspect that the IGNORANCE label that I tie to them was in respect of the fact that they had neither the time or trouble to really understand just how many hybrids and species are 'manufactured' in laboratories these days. Taiwan could open their eyes. Holland is a lot closer to home!!!!!

Thanks to you all, from wherever you are on this planet , because I do passionately believe in a just cause and one day I hope to be able to buy some cracking mass produced orchids from far away places with just the important Bill of Health, and no CITES nonsense covering such plants.

From: Paul Johnson
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Neem oil ?
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:55

As to the mineral oil, or liquid petrolatum, question I might direct
everyone to the Wikipedia entry written by someone from the Lawrence
Livermore Lab, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil. This
page also gives a list of the extensive synonymous terms for the
stuff. What I know and use is what would be considered the light
mineral oil, and high quality would be those packaged forms that lack
the various essences, perfumes, and other additives. Over here light
mineral oil is rather readily available in bulk packaging, but also
at hardware stores in pint to multiple-gallon sized containers.

The heavier petroleum fractions such as kerosene, diesel, etc., do a
wonderful job of killing pests. The basic problems though are their
flammability [not good for chain-smokers! :)] and peculiar tendency
to kill plants. I would gather that neither problem is one that most
orchid growers would wish to deal with. -:)

There are a lot of commercial detergents for enhancing pesticide
applications. The key terms are adjuvant, spreader, spreader-
sticker, or wetting agent. I hate to suggest brand names as things
get so changed once the airliners cross the Mid-Atlantic Rift Zone.
However, I would expect that a dealer in agricultural/horticultural
chemicals would know exactly what is available and what to use with
your pesticides of choice and water conditions (pH and mineral content).

The bias's of afficionados of all kinds are difficult to overcome.
However, the active ingredient of Provado is imadichloprid, which is
quit effective on scale insects and mealybugs. But, like most all
other insecticides the actual effectiveness is directly related to
formulation, pest species, application method and timing, and
applicator follow-up. The liquid formulations sold as Merit, over
here, are what I use and over-the-counter formulations are usually in
the 1% concentration range, plus or minus a few fractions depending
on brand and labelling. Imadichloprid is a systemic, so it does not
necessarily show an immediate kill, which is something that a lot of
people like to see. Also, as I think has been mentioned before, the
death of a scale does not mean the departure of its corpse, and
already dead females with eggs beneath their protective scale, or
mealies with eggs hidden, will not be affected. Hence, repeat
applications or alternative insecticides may be needed.

When faced with a major scale problem, especially Boisduval's scale
(the white one), I use acephate every two to three weeks during the
summer, when plants can be put outside or the greenhouse ventilated
well. I also use liquid imadichloprid 2-3 times, and the another
couple of times during the winter − it's is not as obnoxious in a
closed greenhouse. Any plant with dead scale adhering is then
individually cleaned with isopropyl alcohol soaked cotton swabs or
balls.

Mealybugs are, in my opinion, rather easy to kill and remove from a
collection. Scale insects are another matter. My wife and I spent a
lot of time this past year cleaning up after a major Boisduval's
scale infestation. Nothing worked well until we did a tightly
scheduled series of acephate and imadichloprid applications. Though
seriously infested Catt's were simply placed outside on subzero days;
this was okay in the end as there was more room for Stanhopea and
Coelogyne! Close attention needs to be payed to all plants,
especially non-orchids. For example, though we got the orchids clean
in our scale campaign, we discovered that a hemispherical scale on
Anthurium seemed resistant to the acephate and kept moving back onto
the Phalaenopsis and Paphiopedilum (the imadichloprid seems to have
helped on the Anthurium). In most all persistent pest problems that
I have closely examined in various greenhouses, it seems that the non-
orchids in the neglected corner are the prime sources for scales,
mealies, thrips, spider mites, and others.

> Hi Paul,
> I couldn't recall to which orchid forum you subscribe but, clearly,
> you responded as appropriate to the email I am using for this 'reply'.

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Is John Stanley a time traveller?
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:30

Hi Tricia,
All that wobbly music and stripes before the eyes and I think I'm back.
I must say, it was just the same back in 2001 − gettin' older every day.
Cheers (let me know if I time travel again − wonder if 'my' battery is flat)
Cheers and thanks
John

From: Kevin McNeill
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Stamp.
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:40

Yep, Thats a Catasetum Sanguineum. I reconize the picture from my Orchids from the archives of the toyal horticultural society book.

From: Barbara Larimer
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Stamp.
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:55

Rocky, The word borboleta means "butterfly" in Portugese..So it means "The
Butterfly Orchid."

From: Barbara Larimer
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Stamp.
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 23:15

Rocky, Did I answer too quickly? Did you intend that we should all hazard
a guess as to what species? My guess is cymbidium. What are your
impressions?

From: nancy
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Stamp.
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 04:55

Hi Rocky − It is a Catasetum of some kind − osculatum,
maybe?
Unenlighteningly − Nancy

~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If it's beautifully arranged on the plate, you know
someone's fingers have been all over it."
-- Julia Child

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Stamp.
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:50

At first sight it seems unlikely that the country issuing those stamps would
choose an Asian orchid ! when they have plenty of their own.

But then many years ago in Thailand , I was assured that their national
flower is the Cattleya !

From which I conclude that there's nowt as queer as folk as they say up near
the polar regions of UK.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: That stamp.
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:50

I have been under a little bit of pressure of late so that's why I did not spot the certain tell tale parts of the flower.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Unknown visitor !!!
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 12:10

I went into my greenhouse this morning and I suppose it's the onset of Autumn !!! The time when spiders move indoors. But this visitor was not welcome. See my attached two photos.

My first thought was.....Vine Weevil, but then I can't remember that type of damage to the flower parts with next to nothing missing. If it is a Vine Weevil, then I will be out there this evening to catch the beastie and it will then be put to the 'Weight Test'.....thirteen and a half stone standing on it, say no more.

What interests me most is the dropping/calling card that the rascal left behind. I do hope that my photo of this 'item' will help to perhaps build up a library [stop laughing] of such detail, after all it is vital that this type of damage can be eradicated.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Orchid books
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:35
Source: mail.Orchid Talk List

My orchid book ( Beginners Guide to Orchids) has now been republished in =
a
different format =96 about 16 cm square and 2cm thick under the name =
=93Pocket
Guide to Orchids=94 . It looks to be much of the text and pictures og =
the
former book , apart from the front cover which shows some rather nice
phallys =96 yellow with raspberry spots =96 wish I=92d got that one ! =
=A37.99
ISBN 1-845092-91-0.

The original format has been reprinted in USA as a paper-back, now on =
sale
in Barnes & Noble I suppose. Also published now as a hardback in Greek.
(It=92s the only book in greek on my book-shelves, although I have a few
others which might as well be in Greek =96 such as Microsoft Office 2003
Bible=85..

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Unwanted guest.
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 07:50

I seem to remember that I showed a picture a year or more ago of a very large caterpillar that was the culprit.

I am beginning to think it may have been responsible for the latest damage, but until I spot the devil and take a photo I will not be sure. I even remember that someone said that probably a moth was the parent.

From: Barbara Larimer
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Unwanted guest.
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 12:05

Rocky, Those were some large nibbles on that flower. I wouldn't go back in
there without a red cape and a sword !! Toro!! Toro!!

On 9/30/06, Roger Grier wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> My 'Unwanted Guest'.
>
> I seem to remember that I showed a picture a year or more ago of a very
> large caterpillar that was the culprit.

MONTH	DATE	DATE	DATE	DATE	MONTH	DATE	DATE	DATE	DATE
January	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31	February	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-28
March	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31	April	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-30
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September	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-30	October	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31
November	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-30	December	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31

2006 Archived Messages

22—30 September