2005 mailing list messages

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From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE:London Show 2006
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:00

Just to make it plain that I didn't plan to take over the theatre at my
expense for the entire group - merely for my old friends Ron & Betty as a
quid pro quo for bangers and mash on the following night !
But having said that I am happy to try and make a block booking for as many
as want ( maybe we can all wear an orchid as a button-hole or corsage and
meet in the bar ? ) at members own expense .
Anyone interested on that basis please let me know in this coming week, and
I'll try for the tickets at the coming week-end.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: MOre about CITES
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:35

I have been contacting Orchid Buffs the world wide about CITES and how I think it should be run..........possibly scrap it altogether.

There are of course many ways to look at it, and I am sure that the top people in CITES do not know very much about orchids.

If the very last pink and green striped elephant was given shelter and it died then that would be it. If it were a male elephant then there would be no chance. If it were a female who was pregnant, then there would be a chance..........if the offspring were to be male, if it was another female..........no chance.

But, if the very last remaining orchid in the world were to bloom and set seed pods, us Orchid Buffs would know the answer. If there were shall we say six seed pods, then two could be left to do what Mother Nature intended, while the other four could be harvested and sent to the four corners of the world, to orchid laboratories, and within a few years the world would have THOUSANDS OF THEM. And from then on thousands more. End of story? No! Try telling CITES that this orchid would then no longer be an ENDANGERED SPECIES. Therefore no restrictions would be needed.

If CITES got off their backsides and looked at CONSERVATION and the modern approach to cloning orchids and the seed sowing technique, CITES in respect of orchids would not be required.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: CITES and Well known hybrids.
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:55

As I have said many times before, the top people in CITES cannot surely understand the fact that orchids can produce, from just one seed pod, over one million seeds, several thousand is just so common that we Orchid Buffs just turn a blind eye to it..........it is quite NORMAL.

Talking of 'Blind Eye's' it is about time that the CITES people scrapped altogether the need for such documents to cover ORCHID HYBRIDS.

1. Cattleya Bow Bells, a cross of [C. Edithiae x C. Suzanne Hye] made in 1945, from two other HYBRIDS. Very quietly and rationally I ask this question, why is this orchid regarded as an endangered species? It is not a SPECIES, it is not ENDANGERED, so why is it on any list as such????? Come on now you CITES people you have a lot to answer!

C. Bob Betts was registered in 1950 & has been highly awarded around the world & through the years as one of the finest white flowering hybrids ever made. Bob Betts was a highly regarded orchid grower born in England in 1905 where he learned to love & work with orchids. He sailed to America in 1925 to work for an estate in Pennsylvania. From then on Bob devoted his life to orchids & to helping people & societies with their orchid growing. (American O.S. bulletin, May 1969.)

I have highlighted in 'RED' the last sentence. CITES would do well to read this sentence and heed the warning!!!

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Help, please?
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:10

As it was my birthday last Tuesday, I decided to treat
myself to a trip to Laurence Hobbs nursery and get
some plants.

Got a nice Coelogyne massangeana with two spikes
growing, and a small plant of Dendrobium Casiope.

Can anyone give me any info on the den.? I have
searched the net, but can only get a picture of it,
and no info regarding parentage and/or culture.

From: Jon Loose
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Help, please?
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:45

From: aeranthes
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Dend casiope
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 08:20

Francis - what a lovely treat for your birthday! A wise move! I have searched my numerous orchid books this morning including two encyclopedias on orchids but there is nothing there in any of them! I decided that it must be either a new species or a hybrid and a hybrid it is. I also did an Internet search and you are right there is very little information on it and what there is is repeated. The only thing suggested is a temp of around 10C so I assume that is the minimum but apart from that there is little help. I'm sure in your search you saw that too. It is of very little help but I found it here: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/orchidee.ryanne/m2.html
I'm hoping another member has one and can advise. Peter White who sells orchids here in UK and is often at Shows seems to know a great deal about them. I was looking for a difficult to obtain Dendrobium and found that he has quite a number of various ones so maybe he can help. This is his website and although your orchid doesn't show up on his list neither did mine so I rang him to find that he did have the one I wanted so it's very likely he would know what conditions your orchid needs.
http://www.orchidsbypeterwhite.co.uk/ - Good luck with your search. Jean

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Dendrobium cassiope.
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 09:45

I thought that your Dendrobe sounded like a species name..........no wonder I couldn't find it. So, had a wander around the Web. And this is what I cam up with.

Genealogy of Den. Cassiope
Genealogy of Den. Cassiope Den. Cassiope = Den. moniliforme x Den. nobile (1890)
Registered by Cookson, NC. Den. moniliforme. Den. Cassiope,
www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/ hashizume/Genealogy/Dendrobium/Den_Cassiope.htm

When I tried the website, nothing happened. But at least we all have some information to work on.

P.S. Had an excellent walk around the forest yesterday afternoon and found many interesting fungi. Regards to Shane.

From: dennis READ
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Help, please?
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 09:45

According to Wildcatt D. Cassiope is a primary hybrid ot moniliforme and
nobile and should follow their habits. Regards

From: Andy Mckeown
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Help, please?
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:35

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Help, please?
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:30

I guess spellings are something difficult to master in
the orchid world, isn't it?

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Help, please?
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:45

I think the Dendrobium name is misspelled . Should be cassiopea or maybe
cassiope. It is an old nobile hybrid, can be extremely free flowering , and
is also very free with keikis.
I do not know the other parent ( apart from the assumed nobile) but the
hybrid as I have grown it has rather small flowers, borne in twos and threes
of course, and not very brightly coloured. Maybe I had a poor form.
Needs nobile treatment. Cool it off now, keep it on the dry side- but do not
allow it to shrivel - in the winter, and brighter , warmer and wetter when
it has new growths with roots starting in the Spring.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Help, please?
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:45

BTW I think it was Cassiope that I gave away to many members of this group ,
some years ago, when I split up a very large clump.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] off message......fungi in the forest
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:15

I had the pleasure of a "fungi foray" with my Natural History Society on
Saturday led by a chap who retired from a senior job ( Keeper ? or somthing
like that) at the British Museum where he was involved with fungi . I
started to keep count of how many species we found , but lost track whilst I
was taking pictures, I heard later that it was about 50 - which seems quite
extraordinary since we hardly went more than a mile in a circular wander .
The reason probably ( apart from sheer luck and very suitable weather over
the preceding month ) was that we went through a mixed wood, , across a
strip of heathland , skirted a mire, and crossed a bridle track , so that we
got half a dozen distinct habitats .
Working in my garden yesterday - which was mulched thickly and all over ( in
the Spring) with a layer of composted bracken from the New Forest ( I expect
you know that the Forestry Commisision sell it ) I found six distinct
species myself .
And I was amused to hear complaints about all the name changes , due (inter
alia) to those taxonomists and their DNA investigations showing that species
which have always been in one genera have now been moved to another. Sounds
familiar !

P.S. Had an excellent walk around the forest yesterday afternoon and found
many interesting fungi. Regards to Shane.

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Moving to China, CITES etc
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:15

I will, when I get my things sorted out, send a 'catalog' of all I have
to the list with a description of each plant as it is at the time - some
of them are growing vigorously, others not.

I have been thinking about CITES. In my mind CITES is the result of a
lot of bureaucrats and big business interests from all over the world
getting together, and what they have produced is, when seen from a
certain angle and in a muted light, the best compromise they could
reach, and it was probably a lot of hard work for them. For us as
individuals to try and get any of it changed is simply futile, I'm afraid.

So, perhaps we should think about how we can work around it? The import
process, as I understand it, involves:

1. Getting export papers at one end
2. Getting import papers at the other end
3. Receiving the plants in the airport and wrangling with the customs
officers
4. Quarantine (?)

The paperwork may not be the most difficult part - people like Defra
like to work with routine matters, and they like to work with the same
people they are used to. So if a big company or organisation talked to
them every week or twice a month, things would probably go easier.

As for receiveing the plants - I think the customs officers are the same
as Defra. If you've watched the programs about 'The Year at Kew', you'll
have noticed things go fairly smoothly for them, right?

And quarantine, couldn't a private organisation create an orchid
quarantine facility?

What I'm thinking is: how about we - the small orchid growers in UK -
set up an organisation, a coop, if you will, that handles this? I don't
think we would necessarily have to be 'huge' or even all that big, just
big enough to get Defra and others to take us serious and work with us.
If we could engage the relevant people at Kew in a positive manner, then
so much the better, because those people are the experts that are always
involved anyway.

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: Den Cassiope
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:40

I have now gathered lots of info regarding 1) the
right name for this hybrid. 2) the parentage 3)
conditions needed for culture.

Hopefully, in next to no time, I should be enjoying a
healthy, big, nicely flowering plant.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Moving to China, CITES etc
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:15

There is no question of wrangling with customs ; if you have the right
papers - i.e. import and export permits and health certificate, you get
waved through ( maybe you pay duty, but that's another matter).If you don't
have the right papers the plants are seized - and there is no appeal.

Quanrantine does not enter into the question with plants like this ; at the
most you may be asked to keep them at a declared address for say 3 weeks, to
allow for inspection , but that is more a matter of enabling checking that
the plants are as described, rather than any quarantine matter,

And I think much of this correspondence is based on wrong ideas ; CITES is
not negotiable. It is an International Treaty, cobbled togetrher by
diplomats with their teams of experts, over an 18 month period, and
subsequently ratified by Parliament. We are not going to change it . Big
business is not going to change it either.And it is not sufficiently
important in the eyes of any government for a new replacement treaty to be
negotiated. But the Treaty itself is NOT the problem.

What is the problem is the way the Treaty is interpreted and used. In
particular , the Regulations applied in UK - although my US friends, and
Aussie friends too , say that their Rules are just as bad ..
But as long as UK is a member of the EU , with responsibilities in certain
areas ( including this one, amongst 5000 others) handed over to Brussels,
we can scream and shout all we wish , but that will not change the Brussels
Directive. It never does.

But the Regulations we work under are not drafted by Brussels. They are
drafted by Defra , supposedly to meet the Directive. There is room to be
different - as illustrated by one EU state charging 15 Euros for a permit to
cover 15000 plants of many different genera/species/variety/grex etc., and
another state charging 15 Euros ( equivalent) per plant for the same thing.
And the Defra regulations CAN - and frequently are changed . We could have
a more sensible set of Regs., whilst still meeting the Directive, and being
in accordance with the Treaty.
The blanket approval for a long list of hybrids is a good step in the right
direction, and removes much - but NOT all of my own gripe.

Defra is advised by Kew. If Kew think the rules should be changed - they
will be. But Kew does not have the interests of a few amateur orchid
growers at heart ; it is not part of its remit. Nor does it have the
interests of a few orchid nurseries ; maybe it should, but again, I think,
the trade is so small , that it is of very minor significance in the
economic life of the country . About the only chance is that the RHS could
be persuaded. If they were, they might have enough clout to persuade Kew,

In any case, pressure for change has to be seen to be properly based.
Complaining about it being wrong to import plants from Italy without a
permit and needing one to import from India amounts to complaining that
Italy is an EU member and India is not - and no more than that.

And finally, do not expect Customs or Defra to respond to logic. In the real
world,law is applied without reference to logic. If the law is mad, then
that is the fault of Parliament ( or wheover drafted the "law" )- but the
policeman/customs officer or whatever is not allowed to question the sanity
of the law - just apply it - right or wrong. These people apply the law
as interpreted by their advisors and masters ; no more, no less. You may as
well rail against the sun for shining , or the rain for wetting.

What a philosophoical chap I am this morning - must be those shreddies I had
for breakfast , they have had a calming influence...

I will, when I get my things sorted out, send a 'catalog' of all I have to
the list with a description of each plant as it is at the time - some of
them are growing vigorously, others not.

I have been thinking about CITES. In my mind CITES is the result of a lot of
bureaucrats and big business interests from all over the world getting
together, and what they have produced is, when seen from a certain angle and
in a muted light, the best compromise they could reach, and it was probably
a lot of hard work for them. For us as individuals to try and get any of it
changed is simply futile, I'm afraid.

So, perhaps we should think about how we can work around it? The import
process, as I understand it, involves:

1. Getting export papers at one end
2. Getting import papers at the other end 3. Receiving the plants in the
airport and wrangling with the customs officers
4. Quarantine (?)...

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Jan's Cites thoughts.
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:15

I think that we all agree about what you have said with reference to the difference between the Business people and us Hobbyists.

One thing I would like to comment on is your reference to the 'EXPERTS' at Kew. As we all know there are at least twenty something thousand orchid species, and so I can never see there being an 'EXPERT'.

My wish to 'educate' DEFRA and the CITES people about the propagation of orchids by seed and cloning would surely take thousands of orchids out of the CITES list and so make it much easier for us and the Customs people to work together.

As for the people at Kew being EXPERTS, I will not except that at all. If they were decent honest people they would put their hand on their heart and tell the truth, and as for confiscated plants landing on their doorstep, well, surely they should contact the RIGHTFUL OWNER, WHO HAS PAID GOOD MONEY FOR THEM. Maybe the owner/s did realise that certain documentation was required.

From: Jon Loose
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Moving to China, CITES etc
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:10

It is always easier to adapt the system than overthrow it! I think I even
suggested a very much less well thought out version of it a few months ago -
we could perhaps create a quasi governmental department. Assuming customs
could be persuaded, the main problems to overcome would be cost, location
and staffing.

From: P G Hieke
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Phallys and light.
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:45

Hi Rocky,
It is actually very simple, if your leaves are a mid green then your light levels
are just fine. However if your leaves are a dark green then you have too little
light and on the other end of the scale, if your leaves are light green or even
yellowish then you have too much light. Or put it in other words the lightintensity
should look like in a grey clouded ski. Another way to describe it, on a sunny day
hold your hand over your plants and you should see a light shadow on your plants.
I hope, this is easy enough to understand.
Kind regards
Peter from Bloubergstrand

Peter, your remarks about the light for Phalaenopsis..........9000 to 12500 Lux, or 800 - 1200 fc.

Being an old 'New Forest' yokel with no intelligence whatsoever, ha, ha, these figures that you quote mean nothing to me. For the newcomer to orchid growing, could you please tell them in another way the best sort of light/shade for growing Phallys.

From: P G Hieke
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Phalaenopsis: narrow leaves
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:55

Hi Jan,
Unfortunately it is not that easy. You will not find all the information about
fertilizer and
plant nutrition in a single book. It takes many years of reading every bit of
information
about this subject and to talk to professional orchid growers to understand what
is
going on. To be honest, I'm still in doubt about certain things on this subject,
because
some people say so and others say the opposite.
In any case, read as much as you can, books, magazines, like AOS Orchids,
Orchid Digest, Journal of the International Phalaenopsis Alliance, Orchids
Australia
and any other magazine you can get hold of, and always be critical of what your
read,
it might not be true.
Kind regards
Peter from Bloubergstand

> Hi Peter,
>
> You certainly seem to know something about this. I have been wanting to
> learn more about orchids' needs for nutrients, but I 'm not sure where
> to begin. Are there any good books or other materials you'd recommend?
>
> I suppose I could just go and buy 'Orchid fertillizer' from the garden
> centre, but that would mean I still don't know what I'm doing, really,
> and I would very much like to have real insight into this.
>
> /jan

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Cites, Geoff and his 'Shreddies'.
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:55

Hi Geoff and all other readers who are interested in getting CITES de-regulated.

I loved Geoff's piece of humour and his 'Shreddies' that give him the calming effect.

On the whole, it is for me, very gratifying to read what Geoff has put together, and it is what we all strive for, the altering of certain parts of CITES. Maybe we will..........maybe we won't, but let us all keep knocking at their door.

Let us forget the E.U. membership when it comes to the importation of orchids. Let us say to DEFRA that I intend to import four orchids from Italy, and ask them what paperwork I require. The I ask them what paperwork is required to import the same orchids from India. You see, it makes no difference from which Country I import from. The same plants may be in Appendix 1. or whatever.

The question that we should ask KEW, DEFRA, and CITES is this. Does the membership of the European Union alter in any way the make up of the orchid plant. Why do imports of orchids from member states in the E.U. not require CITES etc? And all of the time THINK ORCHIDS.

Think of Aerides odoratum. It can be imported from Belgium, no paperwork required.

Think of Aerides odoratum. It can be imported from India, paperwork is required.

Same plant, so why the difference. Maybe we should ask KEW, the RHS the question. And there is no sense in talking about the E.U. it's a BOTANICAL question.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Gordon's questions.
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:05

A nice answer from Brian Rittershausen told me that he had lobbied his local M.P. many years ago..........to no avail.

However, I still hope that if we all get together on this issue, and by that I mean WORLD WIDE, I think that we may be heard in the not too distant future.

P.S. Maybe I should send my E-mail about the two Cattleya hybrids to KEW/CITES/DEFRA and whoever else might get stirred up by it.

From: Rudolf Günnel
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Paphs-some photos
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:20

So far I have seen just few images of Paphs on the list. As you know
(perhaps from my messagesduction) the large majority of the orchids I grow
are Paphs species. I bought most of them as young plants or seedlings in
the last few years. One by one they are getting flowering size now.
Fortunately I am owner of a digital camera since early August (isn‹t it
so, Rocky) and so I thought, why not share some photos with you.
At the moment are flowering Paph. coccineum and Paph. liemeanum. Some
others will follow in the next months. The buds are already out of the
sheaths but they grow very slowly-so it will take time and I (maybe you
too) have to be patiently.
How you see Paph. coccineum is a beautiful small plant (leaf span ca. 23
cm) with a relative big flower (ca. 7cm from petal tip to petal tip). It
was described in 2000 and the origin habitat is in Vietnam, Prov. Cao
Bang at an altitude between 500-800 m above sea level.
Paph. liemeanum‹s flowers are at the same size but the plant is much
bigger than Paph. coccineum. Paph. liemeanum comes from the island
Sumatra, Indonesia and was described in 1971. It is one of the revolver
bloomers (one flower appears after the other).
I hope you will enjoy the photos.
Best regards from Germany, Rudolf.

From: John Warwick Stanley
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE:Geoff's fungi in the forest - Homo in the trees-on topic
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:30

Geoff,
At least DNA sequencing, whether for orchids, fungi or ourselves might be more objective in putting things in their place than simple morphology.
What I find so interesting is that we, Homo sapiens, (includes even some taxonomists!), are only 1% genetically different from our chimp friends Pan troglodytes and Pan paniscus. (see http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-12/cuns-cvh121903.php)
So, how long might it be before the species Homo sapiens must be transferred to the genus Pan? (the genus has priority over Homo.)
(see http://www.u.arizona.edu/~jons/chimpgene.html)
Roll over Archbishop Wilberforce, the taxonomists'll getcha even if you thought Huxley and Darwin hadn't; not only does it look like you were descended from an ape, you might even have been one! Have Angraecium sesquipidale for post mortem consolation - no awkward relationships there eh?
How's that for getting us on-topic again Geoff?
John Stanley

From: John Warwick Stanley
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Cites, Geoff and his 'Shreddies' and a rotating Rocky planet.
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:10

Rocky,
Surely, for the purposes to which you refer, the EU (which includes ourselves) is one country just like India is a different country. Movement of plants within a country doesn't need these awkward regulatory hurdles. That's why 'importing' or, better 'transferring' from say France to England is less trouble than from India to England or even Switzerland (non-EU) to England. It is the illogicality of political boundaries, contrasted with the logicality of natural ones but that's what keeps this rocky planet rotating so smoothly . . . (?) The conservational ideal would be to have a CITES rep standing over every plant! It is just more practical to administer movement only when political boundaries are crossed. Just think of the paperwork if you went overland (and chunnel) with a handful of Indian species to England; how many CITES boundaries are there then? Where there seems to be a valid annoying anomaly (say that with a mouthful of Geoff's Shreddies) is in the way some EU 'states' apply the rules differently from others.

Someone will correct me if I am wrong in thinking that it costs 'an arm and a leg' more to import (say) a hundred plants to the UK compared with the same import to Germany or Holland. I have heard that some dealers import to Holland rather than UK for this very reason and then simply legally transfer their CITES-satisfied wares to the UK.(can anyone confirm that?) I guess you need to be a big commercial fish to make it worthwhile though or else have a second home in Rotterdam.
Alternatively I suppose we could offer to pay cross-channel tax rates and then, maybe, have cheaper CITES ones. . . . . ? Or could you come up with a better system - for the plants.
John Stanley

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Jan's Cites thoughts.
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 06:15

While I think it is a good and noble cause to try to induce the powers
that be to make changes in the way they interpret CITES, I think it is
equally important that we don't stop there. At best it will take many
years to achieve anything with regards to changes, and in the meantime
we will want to find the easiest way around the problems; and that is
what I tried to put in words.

What you said about experts: I think you misunderstand what an expert
actually is. I, for example, am one - I administrate a large number of
UNIX servers in an international software house. This doesn't mean that
I know all - or in some cases anything - about everything, but I know
how to find out, quickly. And I suspect this is the case for Kew's
experts: they don't know all orchid species, or even most, but they know
how to find out, they have easy access to all the authoritative works,
they have access to a large network of people all over the world who are
THE authorities on little segments of the orchid world.

I'm sure many of us hobbyists are more knowledgable about the aspects of
orchids that interest us personally than many of Kew's experts, but when
it comes to determining species, I'm prepared to believe them rather
than anybody else, myself included.

Another thing is that it doesn't matter what we think about it - the
authorities have chosen Kew's experts as their reference point. It will
be in our own interest to have them on our side. I realise it may be
difficult - all parties are probably unhappy about the situation. We
hate to have our plants confiscated, the customs hate to do an unpopular
job, and I'm sure Kew hate to feel that they alienate members of the
public - all in all this ought to be a good basis for some sort of
workable compromise.

As for what we might achieve - rather than trying to get the entire
CITES, Kew and Defra thrown out, perhaps we should go for something more
modest, like try to persuade them to take a slightly less heavyhanded
approach. Like eg. if a plant doesn't have the right papers, maybe they
could say 'You have X months to get the papers in order, and in the
meantime we need to keep a tab on the plant somehow' - perhaps the plant
could be kept at a 'Trusted Quarantine Facility', like Kew or 'The
Society of Hobby Orchid Growers' (ie. us, if we set up that society),
for some reasonable fee.

I'm not what Kew do to confiscated plants, but I'm sure they don't just
destroy them. Kew's people seem to be very conscientious and I believe
they love plants just as much as we do.

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Moving to China, CITES etc
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 06:30

I agree with what you say, and you obviuosly know more about things than
I. I think what you say makes my idea much more achievable - my biggest
worry was about the potential need for quarantine, because that can be
incredibly expensive, and you don't know what happens to your plants
when you have no access to them.

Doing the necessary paperwork is something that will be easy once it
becomes routine, and this is where an organisation could be really
useful. I we all have to learn the procedures individually, it will be
painful and expensive, and we would always be new faces in the view of
Defra, Kew, the customs etc because each of would at most import once or
twice a year on average. On the other hand, if we operated through an
organisation, then the organisation would be the face they would be
seeing, perhaps once a week or a couple of times per month - they would
get to know us, and they would get more friendly and helpful because of
that. A lot of things involving civil servants are very much easier when
they run in a friendly routine, especially when it involves documents.

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: Orchid nutrients
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 06:35

You should write something about it, then - a small book, perhaps, or a
a website; a Wiki, maybe?

I would be one of the first to buy such a book if you wrote it, I can
promise that!

From: Gordon Walker
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Gordon's questions.
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:00

Rocky,
Have you noticed that there seems to be a deafening silence from across the pond on the topic?
Gordon.

A nice answer from Brian Rittershausen told me that he had lobbied his local M.P. many years ago..........to no avail.

However, I still hope that if we all get together on this issue, and by that I mean WORLD WIDE, I think that we may be heard in the not too distant future.

P.S. Maybe I should send my E-mail about the two Cattleya hybrids to KEW/CITES/DEFRA and whoever else might get stirred up by it.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Cites, Geoff and his 'Shreddies'.
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:35

But, Rocky, if you go to Winchester you don't expect to need your passport ?
If you go to Russia you do expect to need your passport ?
Its the same thing. Inside the country/outside the country.
I know its a difficult concept for old codgers like me and maybe you -
although I understand that you are only a youngster compared to me - at
least months younger if not years- but Italy really is the same country for
these purposes . Vive la Chianti !

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE:Geoff's fungi in the forest - Homo in the trees-on topic
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:45

The concept which is so deep that I get lost trying to think about , is when
the whole genus/species bit stops working - and I am rudderless.
I keep coming back to Phil Cribb's comment to me, that the whole concept of
species simply does not fit certain orchid groups . There may be an almost
continuous spectrum which we artifically divide up into a series of genera
and species, but hitherto based on morphological issues ; and DNA shows
these to be much less significant.
The whole hierarchy of genus/species - and you can take it much further
than that,through Kingdos, tribes, families etc - the whole Linnean
heirarchy - was a brilliant idea, and it works so well for so much of the
time and in respect of s many of the living organisms in the world , that
when it falls down, the world suddenly becomes a bewildering place instead
of a logical ordered place.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Moving to China, CITES etc
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:50

The forms are actually quite easy . And it is the suppliers names on the
Export Permit which is important - they tend to be familiar names which Kew
( who do the vetting for Defra) recognise and see all the time - Kultana
Orchids, T orchids, Joseph Wu , etc. etc. I guess that almost all permits
for orchids are for importation from a small number of familiar names.

From: John Warwick Stanley
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Cites, Geoff, Shreddies,antiquity and codgers
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:30

Geoff,
You, an old codger?
Knockin' on in years a little, maybe. But "mean and miserly" or a "tramp"? (both OED) Never!
How about "senior", "mature", "experienced" and "expert". Think positive lad!
(Now, about that tenner I was going to ask you to lend me . . . . . . . . ).
John the Younger

From: Silvio a Beccara
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Cites, Geoff and his 'Shreddies'.
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:35

I "imported" orchids (both hybrids and species) from Germany and France quite
a few times now, but noone has ever required me to provide any paperwork,
since we are all in the EU. The wrong concept here is "import". You could
travel across the border say, of Italy with France or from France to Germany
with the log of your car filled up with orchids (provided they're not
collected from the wild, like any other wildflower), and nobody would hardly
have anything to argue.

From: John Warwick Stanley
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE:Geoff's fungi in the forest - Homo in the trees-back on topic
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:45

Geoff,
I'd go along so far with Phil Cribb's comments you quote. If you think about it, the more detail we have of a taxonomic line then the more difficulties there are. Especially if you add the time factor and really get into evolution. Unless we deal with speciation by leaps and bounds (puctuated equilibrium wasn't it?) we deal with a continuous spectrum of variation in space and time (as you say) and division is arbitrary (or prudent). I suppose that we might not all mean the same thing when we say "it works well". A systematist would like to reflect evolutionary lineages whereas many of us would like to clump similar-looking plants together. The two aren't always compatible aims. DNA studies reveal virtually quantitative differences, albeit differences that can be confusingly wrongly interpreted. Even so, I get the feeling that 'we' (or those that perform the magic) are getting nearer to an understanding of 'why' and 'how' than is achievable using morphological 'characteristics' alone. It always amuses me when cynics of evolution point to missing links without realising that every time one is found two more are created!
John S.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: humidiification again
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:50

As I said earlier I have been using a Jaybird - spinning water drops out of
the tips of the fan at 10,000 rpm, controlled by a hygrostat - and this has
been exellent for the purpose all the summer.

But ( there always is a but...) I have something of a lime encrustation on
the leaves ogf plants nearest the fan , which is a pain to clean off ( for
Shows ) and unsightly. The mains water here is hard . It makes me wonder if
my humidifaction was adequate before I started the Jaybird, when I was using
the same water but had no encrustation - it seems doubtful.

I have had conversations with Jaybird about this ; I am now rigging up a
system to pump rainwater , instead of using mains tap water , and Jaybird as
helpful as always are making some wiring to give me control of the pump from
the hygrostat , on a"plug and play" basis. I had to use my ingenuity to
solve one or two problems here ( the Jaybird is 10 feet up in the air, but
the water demand - even if on non-stop ( which is far from the case) is only
2 gph - and plenty of pumps will do the lift but deliver a hundred times as
much water as I need , but I solved that with an intermediate tank - I'll
explain to anyone needing info and not bore the others..

Incidentally Jaybird also told me something I didn't know ; Reverse Osmosis
systems are made designed to produce a "coarse" output - good enough for
this purpose ( and maybe for much watering of plants too ? )- and with far
less water wastage . Apparently available in USA for the order of $150 for
one giving as much as 100 gpd ( gph= gallons per hour, gpd= gallons per
day). Something to bear in mind if rain gets less as some doom merchants
predict.

From: MARK GRIFFITHS
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE:Geoff's fungi in the forest - Homo in the trees-on topic
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:55

I too and completely confused and have been for several years. I had been taught that species are groups that are not able to interbreed for reasons of a number of barriers, e.g flight/flowering time, geography etc. That always left me vaguely unsatisfied..so if in the 5th century the anglosaxons were unlikely to meet the incas they would be a different species? Then of course with both orchids and other plants, e.g fritillaria we have hybrid swarms and wild hybrids such as Pleione x confusa misidentified as a "good species". So in those areas are there two species (the parents), three (incl. P. x confusa) or just one? We are told these groups are "actively evolving" and so in a way we should just wait..but then aren't we all actively evolving?

Geoffrey Hands wrote:
The concept which is so deep that I get lost trying to think about , is when the whole genus/species bit stops working - and I am rudderless.
I keep coming back to Phil Cribb's comment to me, that the whole concept of species simply does not fit certain orchid groups . There may be an almost continuous spectrum which we artifically divide up into a series of genera and species, but hitherto based on morphological issues ; and DNA shows these to be much less significant.
The whole hierarchy of genus/species - and you can take it much further than that,through Kingdos, tribes, families etc - the whole Linnean heirarchy - was a brilliant idea, and it works so well for so much of the time and in respect of s many of the living organisms in the world , that when it falls down, the world suddenly becomes a bewildering place instead of a logical ordered place.

From: Jon Loose
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE:Geoff's fungi in the forest - Homo in the trees-on topic
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:35

The cereal helps (well the starchy bit anyway - the sugar may cause more
problems than it solves).

We have to remember our Darwin, evolution doesn't often happen in big steps
(it might in certain situations like mass extinction) but normally a
mutation occurs and it may do two things (actually probably more but I need
my cereal too):

1) It may cause better survival in certain situations enabling
geographic separation from its predecessor - goes further up the mountain or
whatever.

2) It causes lower pollination rates with non-carriers - maybe a
different pollinator or whatever and so a local barrier against its
predecessor.

Assuming that two species evolve here - with other mutations or
characteristics becoming more common in one species than another, there is
a) a stage at which it is all continuous across both "species" and b) after
differentiation there will still be residual pockets of the "non-typical
characteristics - the natural variation that we see within a species.

I know I've put this badly and it is better done by Rentoul in his
Australian species book. There is no such thing as a species in nature - it
is a way of making abbreviated sense of the variation but might be more
accurate if we said "A Dendrobium aff kingianum from the southern region
with this list of characteristics ..."

The gardener can do what they like in the way of naming but if you are
interested in the underlying truth the initial bewilderment is the way
forward.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: DEFRA
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:45

Thought you might be one of the best people to answer this question, posted by Gordon.

What say you Andy??? And while we are on the subject, you remember I decided to ask DEFRA if I should 'Register' as an 'Orchid Importer', well, would I still have to 'Registered' to import from the E.U.???

From: N & T Burgess
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Winter Weather
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:45

If my tortoises are anything to go, by we might be in for a longer cold spell. Three have been asleep for the last two weeks, their heat lamp not making any difference. The two eldest were in the garden on Sunday sunbathing when last saw them before 1300. On my return after 1800 they were not to be found, even in their favourite places. I searched next morning also looking for freshly dug earth no torts, my husband looked early afternoon expecting to find them sunbathing, he found one two inches under and the other just covered. They don't formerly go down until November early December!
The electricity bill for keeping the orchids warm will be enormous if they are right.
I hope they have got it wrong!
Norma Burgess

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: DEFRA
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:35

> What say you Andy??? And while we are on the subject, you remember I
> decided to ask DEFRA if I should 'Register' as an 'Orchid Importer',
> well, would I still have to 'Registered' to import from the E.U.???

I suspect Silvio may be correct in his comments on 'import', though. Is
*buying* something from another EU country classed as importing?

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: DEFRA
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:30

No , of course it is not. Importing is bringing something in from outside.
All of EU is "inside". This is the absolute bottom line of what the EU is (
should be) all about.

Its why I can go and live in any EU state, without needing a permit -
whereas if I want to live in Oz or USA OI would need a residents permit/visa
etc - which is noit easily obtained and often cannot be obtained at all . (
short-term permist are different) . Likewise in EU I can work , without a
work permit, buy wine in France and bring it in through the green channel
, . But I can't (legally) work in USA without a work permit, and if I buy
Californian wine in USA I have to bring it through the red channel, etc.
etc.

From: Andy Mckeown
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] DEFRA
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:25

Defra say they take up to 3 weeks to process an import permit. They are quite good at replying quickly to e mails and it is not difficult to get someone on the phone.

Thought you might be one of the best people to answer this question, posted by Gordon.

From: Ron Bower
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Winter Weather
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:00

Hello Norma,
My electricity bill for keeping my orchids is enormous what ever the weather. This winter it will be even more enormous for all orchid growers and sadly may mean that some decide that it is too much.
Interesting about your tortoises, but it may confirm what many sources are saying. I had a tortoise when I was a young fellow. It never buried itself an used to some how find away into the greenhouse and hide in the darkest place under the bench. I had it for several years then it just disappeared.
Ronbow.

From: sheila bicknell
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Winter Weather
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:30

Thank you for the weather warning Norma - it has prodded me into even greater efforts at cleaning up the Cymbidiums and getting them back into the greenhouse (have left them outside later this year waiting/hoping for flower spikes to show)
What about you Rocky - have you decided to relent and give your Cymbids another chance in the greenhouse - or are they destined to suffer the winter outside as you threatened earlier this year ??
Regards, Sheila.

From: Dave Blowers/UK/Tesco
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] humidiification again
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:25

I have had to confront exactly the same problem, Geoff so I'm very
interested to hear your solution (offline if appropriate).
At present I have one of the older XE351 foggers on the floor gravity fed
from a rainwater tank, but I also leave my new XE400 on the floor
humidifying incoming airflow because I do not want it mains fed at high
level spraying scale dust everywhere (I also have hard water)

Like you, I would like to raise the fogger up high but stil feed it with
rainwater. I even got as far as buying a float switch, intending to keep a
tank at high level filled by a pump, and gravity feed from there to the
fogger. Main problem which I never got round to solving was how to design
something strong enough to keep 3 gallons of water in the eaves of the
greenhouse.

As I said earlier I have been using a Jaybird - spinning water drops out of
the tips of the fan at 10,000 rpm, controlled by a hygrostat - and this has
been exellent for the purpose all the summer.

But ( there always is a but...) I have something of a lime encrustation on
the leaves ogf plants nearest the fan , which is a pain to clean off ( for
Shows ) and unsightly. The mains water here is hard . It makes me wonder
if my humidifaction was adequate before I started the Jaybird, when I was
using the same water but had no encrustation - it seems doubtful.

I have had conversations with Jaybird about this ; I am now rigging up a
system to pump rainwater , instead of using mains tap water , and Jaybird
as helpful as always are making some wiring to give me control of the pump
from the hygrostat , on a"plug and play" basis. I had to use my ingenuity
to solve one or two problems here ( the Jaybird is 10 feet up in the air,
but the water demand - even if on non-stop ( which is far from the case) is
only 2 gph - and plenty of pumps will do the lift but deliver a hundred
times as much water as I need , but I solved that with an intermediate tank
- I'll explain to anyone needing info and not bore the others..

From: Ronald Newstead
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Winter Weather
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:10

Here in Cascais, Portugal, the lowest winter night-time temperatures are
almost down to 0º C. and my cymbidiums stay out all year and are showing
flower spikes with buds now, so they will stand quite low temperatures. But
I would not risk them in a frost. Not that I shall get the opportunity while
they are here! - I hope!

From: Ronald Newstead
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: humidiification again
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:15

I was recommended by a professional grower at one of the shows, not to have
my fogging outlets at or above plant level but I persisted in disregarding
his advice and it does not seem to have harmed the plants. But we have a
much drier climate here in Portugal than you have in the UK.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Sheila's Cymbids.
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:10

After reading with much interest, the website of Nik Van den Bosch from Tasmania, I have 'torn' all but six of them apart, [they still have to be done] and I have removed nearly all redundant back bulbs, cleaned them all, even cut off the leaves to a more manageable size, potted them in 100% horse manure and stood them on the bench in the coolhouse. They are mostly in three to four inch clay pots. Plenty of new/young growths showing, so we will just wait and see what happens.

On a side note, you may remember me saying that I tore a large plant of Coelogyne apart and potted up many three inch pots. One of these I gave Andy when we met and swapped some plants this week. It was in a plastic net pot, about two an a half inches in diameter. When I picked up the pot and looked underneath, there was a nice new root already half an inch out of the pot, and looking extremely good. I am soon going to put all of my Paphs in horse manure, and just for one reason. Since I looked at a Paph root under a microscope I have had a different approach to how they should be grown. I only have about eight Paphs so I will give it a try. Watch this space!!!

From: dennis READ
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Devon Orchid Weekend
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:10

More information on the Devon Orchid Weekend. The nurseries attending are BURNAM, PLESTED, LAURENCE HOBBS, MALCOLM PERRY, RATCLIFFE, ROLLKE, TROPISCHE ORCHIDEEN and WUBBEN.
The Societies displaying are WEST CORNWALL, PLEUROTHALLID AL. , EAST MIDLANDS, O.S.G.B., BRISTOL, SCOTLAND, SOUTHERN COUNTIES, NORT EAST OF ENGLAND, MICHEAL POTTER, SHEFFIELD, NORTH OF ENGLAND, SOMERSET, WILTSHIRE, SOUTHWEST NOT FORGETTING DEVON.
There also seven talks scheduled over the two days.
The show is at the Langstone Cliff Hotel on Saturday 29th October 10.30 am till 5.00pm and Sunday 30th October from 10.30 am untill 4.00 pm.
It is always a great show.
Regards

From: sheila bicknell
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Sheila's & Rocky's Cymbids.
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:05

I also spent a lot of time reading all the very interesting info on the same website - don't the plants look good - I was very tempted, having a neighbour who keeps a horse the basic requirements would have been very easy to come by !!
However, I decided against going that route - having once upon a time transported a few bags of horse manure in the boot of my car I didn't feel that I wanted to have that pong every time I went into the greenhouse - let alone when I take plants to shows etc. !!! I think I would be barred !!
It sounds as though your initial feelings are that its going to be a good way of growing = Please keep us posted.
Regards, Sheila

From: Ron Bower
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Telephone numbers
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:40

This is off topic.I refer to my comment regarding the phone number Rocky gave for Virgin.The member, a lady I think replied saying that the 0800 numbers were free. Yes they are. What I said or think I said refereed to 0870 & 0845 numbers which cost up to 10 pence per minute. The matter has had TV and press cover and if you wish to peruse go to SaynoToo870 Webb site or www.ofcom.org.
I am sorry I can't tell you the name of the person who questioned my posting because my Router Malfunctioned and I lost 4 days of incoming and outgoing mail and so cannot check. Trust this clears the matter. Ronbow.

From: John Warwick Stanley
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: humidiification again and again with a 'chimney'
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:10

Hi Dave and others in the fogger business,
We have one of the models supplied by Simply Controls for over 12
months and, so far, have had it standing on a low plastic stool. When we
first acquired it, after seeing Geoff's (then a similar model), I wanted to
experiment with higher-level fog emission. However, instead of attempting to
raise the fogger unit, I simply used some spare plastic drain-pipe to pipe
the air/fog flow up to near the roof. We eventually settled for simply
aiming the outlet nozzles from their position with the fogger on the stool
but, as I recall, the device didn't produce noticeably less fog from its
experimental 'chimney' although, I guess, some water must have condensed
inside the pipe and run back.
Certainly, before embarking on heavy engineering to raise the water
tank, it could be worth finding a piece of old plastic pipe (soil pipe would
be better than I used) and experimenting. We didn't abondon the 'chimney'
because of any failure of the experiment but simply because, in our
greenhouse (which is about 6 X 2.5 metres), lower level emission fills the
place with fog to our satisfaction without the added complexity. Fortunately
also, we don't suffer from lime scale to any significant extent . . . . yet.
John Stanley

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: humidiification again and again with a 'chimney'
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:20

I agree about low level fogging - works just as well ( unless it is a very
high greenhouse) I would have thought. .
But I would not want to have a 10,000rpm fan at low level - even if it is
guarded. ( actually Jaybird say that the guard reduces efficiency to a small
extent , and I left mine off because it is too high to be a danger to
anyone).
Ducting would not, in my opinion, work with a Jaybird . The water is flung
out of the tips of the blades, so travels in jet streams with a largely
radial component as it breaks up into minute droplets and effectively
vaporises . Constrained into axial flow - before that has happened - the
water would just drip out of the end of the duct ( I think ! ).

From: Ronald Newstead
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: humidiification again and again with a 'chimney'
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:00

So can I take it that the fogging should be done preferably at a high level
and not lower down as the pro' told me?

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Horse manure.
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:40

You mentioned, and are concerned about the 'Pong' as you call it. Well, I can put your mind at rest. especially where New Forest Pony droppings are concerned. As they are free to roam the forest and they eat only mainly grass, bracken, and a few tree leaves, there is no pong at all.

When I collect a plastic supermarket type bagful, I leave it open topped on my workbench in my workshop, and I sue it when I need it. I also break it up very slightly and place it around my shrubs etc.

In all cases, especially when I have sprayed the rainwater/manure mix on to the top of my pots, and over head, there is no smell at all after just a few minutes.

From: dennis READ
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Humidity
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:55

I am enjoying all your talk on humidity. The main orchids I grow are lycastineae that notoriously require high humidity. I do not use any fogger. My greenhouse has, for a floor, 9 inches (13cm) of gravel on a layer of terram (a form of plastic) together with an under bench spray system. For the summer I have a high level spray system over my Ceologynes and Restrepias. In the summer the spray system is activated four times a day but in the winter the under bench system is on twice a day for two minutes a time. . The relative humidity rarely falls below 70% and at the moment it is !00% and my flowers are mildewing.
I was assured 10 years ago that Lycastineae must have a fogger. I find it difficult to accept that a fogger is a necessity.
Regards

From: John Warwick Stanley
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: humidiification -axial-radial-flow-suck-it-n-see
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:40

Geoff 'n' Dave,
Geoff, I think the fogger you had when we once visited you (re;binoc
microscope) was not a Jaybird (?) but a green-based, white conical-topped
job with a multi-apertured green head from which the fog emanates.
Certainly, by the time the fog is expelled there is no radial flow - it is
axial (albeit, maybe with a bit of non-axial turbulence) No problem with
ducting (within reason) although some fog must 'condense' or rather the
already condensed micro-droplets coalesce inside the duct. The solution is
to try it - it can only succeed or fail and it takes but a couple of
minutes. 'av a go! Suck it'n'see! Give it a whirl or similar (and easier
than pushing water uphill).
John

From: John Warwick Stanley
To: Orchid Talk list
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: humidiification -the high and low roads
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:45

No Ron,
't ain't necessarily so. As I said, after the experiment we reverted to low
level fogging but not because of a failure of our chimney.
I was simply suggesting a way of cheaply and painlessly trying out high
level fogging for those who wish to experiment.
John

> So can I take it that the fogging should be done preferably at a high
> level and not lower down as the pro' told me?

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2005 Archived Messages

October 15—21