June 2005 mailing list messages

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From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Glass and Polycarb
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:00

The short answer as to why I have glass in my greenhouse is SOLELY that I
could not get anyone to supply me with a greenhouse the size I wanted glazed
with triple-wall polycarbonate „ the material which is about 20mm thick. The
standard glazing bars are designed for glass ( say 5mm) and can take the
thin double walled poly ,but that is not very rigid and I feared it might
pop out in gales. Also the insulation effect is not brilliant. The triple
walled on is ideal „ in my mind „ but it needs a different glazing bar , and
whilst that is freely available, we would be talking about a one-off , at a
special price.

Correction , one firm , who do use the material , quoted me , I forget
the actual size, but the quote was £30k providing I had all the brickwork
etc done „ that was just for the metal , glazing and erection.

When I asked how it could be that the price for a 10 foot wide was under
£10k and for a 16 or 18 foot wide it tripled , when obviously the only extra
material was a small roof area „ the walls would be the same for example „
the answer is that the roof glazing bar for a 10 foot wide, is say 6 feet
long , and ( I guess) a 2 inch bar is OK. When the width is near doubled,
the 2 inch bar flexes too much and they start talking of truss designs, or
in this caser, they were proposing a steel portal design - like steel
arches as an inner structure, and then the alloy bars etc added on. So the
whole thing was changed. Understandable, as we don‹;t want the greenhouse
blowing away in a gale, and if you start calculating loadings and stress
levels, for the two different sizes, you will see that a different order of
magnitude is involved.

I recall that a few years ago I calculated capital cost of the glazing
material, heating costs, and hence pay-back times for a whole range of
materials, and the triple-wall became my favourite then.

I used triple-wall when I lived in the Cotswolds, with a 30foot x 20 foot
pit house ; Alitex(?) designed and built it for me and I was very well
pleased with it. The insulation effect was better than I had hoped in the
cold months, and surprised me by its value in the warm months in keeping the
interior cool. I don‹t know any down-side if you have done the
cost/pay-back calculation and are happy with the answer.

And by the way , I was told by wise-acres ›you can grow orchids in
polycarbonate glazed houses, but they will never flower ›. I don‹t think I
have to comment further on that pointŶ

From:
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Cyps
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:15

I have just received a new catalogue from Jacques Amand which lists the new
hybrid Gisela which comes in two colours, yellow and a purple and pink?, also
listed is another hybrid called Ulla Silkens which is a cross between flavum
and reginae, both those varieties are listed. I feel at the moment that I
might be tempted with Ulla Silkens as the price is about £10 cheaper than the
others and is listed as 'A good garden hybrid', and that might be a good one
to start with. I will bring the catalogue to our meeting on Saturday.

From: Jean-Paul Pichardie
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: Cyps
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:45

Hello
There is a seller on ebay Belgium who seems to have a very large stock. You may want to look at his page--he even provides an English version
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category„39&itemC86276554&rd1&ssPageNameWDVW
You may also look at the cypripedium page on ebay Germany
http://search.ebay.de/cypripedium_W0QQfkrZ1QQfromZR8

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Orchis laxiflora.
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:05

Thanks for the explanation as to where the name of your orchid came from. Say no more!!!!!

I do know Norman Hayward from deepest Dorset, and at was once a member of the Hardy orchid Society.

I would love to know the reason why this orchid has 'ANOTHER NAME', and I would also like to know who gave it this name and why.

When I look at pictures of the tubers of these two orchids I see that they are not the same.

The word 'Anacamptis', does not have a clear explanation, nor is it easy to find from several books dealing with botanical names etc.

One of my books tells us this: Anacamptis. Pyramid Orchid. From the Greek, anakampto, meaning bent back, referring to the spur of the flower.

As most of us know, Orchis is a Greek word meaning testicles, as the shape of the underground tubers resemble the testicles of very small boys.

I am at a loss as to why this orchid has seemingly been given another name, and until I read why........cobblers to them.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Ron's Hydroton.
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:10

Not having heard of this medium before, it reminds me of the item here in the U.K. named 'Hydoleca'.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Weather information.
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:30

If the two little books that I have were readily available today then I am sure that many of us would grow some of our orchids much better, and not loose the odd one or two.

Thank you Wendy. I look forward to seeing the new catalogue. I will probably send for the one you mention. It sounds good.
RonN - those granules look very like the ones I have used in the past and are widely available here but not from a German source as far as I know. There was a really good article in the AOS magazine a couple of years ago with photographs illustrating how to grow using similar granules and with good photographs of the pots too. These were what I think must be the usual hydroculture pots that can be bought from specialist firms. They seem to have an inner and outer section with the growing medium in one and water in the outer one into which an indicator stands showing the level of the water. You can achieve the same result with standing one pot without drainage holes inside a larger pot. I'll try and find the article and then if you are interested let me know and I can send it on. - Jean

From: Jean Lewis
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: medium and pots
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:00

Ron, I found the article but it wasn't complete so I did a search and found
the article on the Internet. I find that he uses ordinary pots inserted into
a container without drainage holes - anyway have a look it's an interesting
enough read. Here is also another url which you may find interesting. Jean

http://www.interiorwatergardens.com/cultural_files/hydroponics/a%20simplified%20method.html
http://members.lycos.co.uk/hydroculture/

From: Ronald Newstead
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Light Meters.
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:25

When I moved my orchid house I ’glazed' the roof with triple-wall
polycarbonate which has been very successful and is still ’in situ' some
years later. I also have it on the roof of our conservatory in Bath, after
suffering, some Christmases ago, a minor disaster when a tile blew off the
roof and crashed through the double-glazed glass roof, covering the
Christmas presents etc with glass fragments!

I am now planning to install an orchid house in Bath and am thinking of
cedar frame glazed with the same material. Any comments?

From: Ronald Newstead
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Glass and Polycarb
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:25

From: Ronald Newstead
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Cyps
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 23:50

Thanks, Jean. I am basically using a flood & drain system which seems to be
giving acceptable results.

However, I am not sure what I am going to do in the new greenhouse in Bath
where I shall not have the services of my Portuguese handyman who relishes
the strange challenger I set him, so perhaps it might be a good idea to find
out about the pots as well as the granules available in the UK. In other
words, I would be very grateful for a copy of the article, if you can trace
it.

From: Ronald Newstead
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Ron's Hydroton.
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 23:50

From: Ronald Newstead
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Glass and Polycarb
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 23:50

I can't say yet, Geoff. What would you think would be a reasonable (i.e.,
reasonably large) size, given the dimensions of our garden?

From: aeranthes
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: hydrocuture
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:45

Ron I sent the url of the article on to you last night. You should have it by now but if not let me know and I'll send it again. If you look up in the top left hand corner when you view the page you will see the kind of pot which is often used. Jean

From: len.handley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Liparis atrosanguinea
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:05

I have two or three seedlings of the species Liparis atrosanguinea which I
bought in flask from Equatorial Plants nearly three years ago. They look OK
but I'm not sure I've got the best environment for them. Could someone
please advise on the following :
Are they terrestrial ?
Temperature requirements ?
Light requirements ?
Potting compost ?
I would also appreciate similar information for Gomesa crispa.
Thanks in anticipation.
Len Handley.

From: len.handley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Light Meters.
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:20

Mine is not self-powered; it has a 9-volt battery. It is excellent. The
Ratcliffe one was self-powered but detected infra-red rather than visible
light and was useless for measuring artificial light.
Len

From: GEORGE GARTHWAITE
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE:glazing
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:45

Ron,
I have an old 'Dutch light' cedar framed g'house which was originally
used for growing tomatoes by a market gardener in my village.

I have it raised on brick walls 2 feet (0.6m) high and it is made up of
10 feet long sections. One of these sections is devoted to my warmer/hot
orchids.

Last winter I puchased twin walled polycarbonate from Wicks in 3 metre
lengths and attached them to the inside of the cedar wood frame with the
glass still on the outside. Perfect snug fit!

The improvement over bubble polythene is phenominal! Especially in the
winter, and costs less in heating too! I've never had so many plants
blooming at one time!

However, there is too much light in the summer (up to now!) and I have
covered the roof and the west facing side with 50% shade netting which
is raised off the glass by 3 x 2 (75mm x 50 mm) wooden laths ....if one
can call them laths!

This is working out well, but I may have to provide a little more shade
in part if this warm spell continues. (And I have a 5" extracor fan to
replace the 3" one) Also, if anyone in the west of the UK has any spare
rain water, I would be happy to take it from them! Here in the 'Wheat
and Pea' growing area of N.E. Lincolnshire we have had about 20mm in the
last 8 weeks at a guess. I'm down to using mains water. (I have 4 x 220
litre barrels collecting from the roof.....that's about a ton....and not
a drop left!!)

Anyway, I will definitely use the polycarbonate again when I extend from
40 to a 50 foot length for my/our greenhouse.........depends when I can
persuade the better half to grant permission!

Thanks go to Geoff who's extended analyses of these problems put us on
the right track for finding effective solutions and certainly convinced
me that polycarbonate was the answer.

When I moved my orchid house I 'glazed' the roof with triple-wall
polycarbonate which has been very successful and is still 'in situ' some
years later. I also have it on the roof of our conservatory in Bath, after
suffering, some Christmases ago, a minor disaster when a tile blew off the
roof and crashed through the double-glazed glass roof, covering the
Christmas presents etc with glass fragments!

I am now planning to install an orchid house in Bath and am thinking of
cedar frame glazed with the same material. Any comments?

From: "Schoonjans, Peter-Dieter \(IT\)"
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Weather information.
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:35

To get the tables for other regions, try in google the following terms:
'your city of interest' relative humidity precipitation average
+www.explore.co.uk

From: Anthony Page
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: capillary matting
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:15

has anyone any suggestions for preventing moss and algae from forming on capillary matting? I spend a fortune replacing it. The matting is fed from 6 mini tanks connected to the mains supply.
Anthony Page

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Cypripediums - Christian Rare Plants.
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:50

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Glass and Polycarb
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:50

I would have thought that 20 x10 would be large, and say 15 x 10 probably OK
. Anything smaller than 12 x 10 gets difficult to keep cool in summer.

I can‹t say yet, Geoff. What would you think would be a reasonable (i.e.,
reasonably large) size, given the dimensions of our garden?

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Glass and Polycarb
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:55

Approx 35 x 15 „ actually 14 ft 7 inch. Why don‹t you come and look at it
when you are next here ? ( lunch invitation ) Or stay overnight , we have
a guest suiteŶ.and you and Betty are always welcome

From: Ron Bower
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Glass and Polycarb
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:50

Geoff, I do recall reading your article regarding the capital costs and payback time ect for the various glazing materials, I thought it was on your Webb site but it is not. As you found, anything out of the ordinary these days costs a arm and a leg and 30k was a very good reason for staying with glass.I would not have the problems with weight with my conservatory for the 2 corner supports are 5 or 6 inch H section alloy girders each with a tensioner adjustable rod., You can see them on the picture, what I don't like, and did not know of until you pointed out was the flexing and possible blow out of the glazing. The longest glass roof run is some 20ft, and as you say if the heat loss with the twin wall is not much better than horticultural glass,well!. As for cost and payback, I have a price for the 3ml twin wall sample of 5.5K for the conservatory and that includes renewing or replacing 6ft double doors. I will get a price for glass but as I said It will have to be in panes longer the 24inch. As for the payback time, I am I think a couple of years or so ahead of you. My father made 90.But?
I am now getting interested in Dendrobiums and I think it would be OK for conditioning them as well as the Cims which take up to much room in my greenhousel

The greenhouse may be more feasible for triple wall as you say the degree of insulation on yours was good and if it reduces the need for shading so much the better. I think the sash bars on mine would be deep enough at .5 inch but should I also glaze the sides with the same material, they are 3 foot brick?The greenhouse is not connect to the house gas central heating and electric as you will know is expensive, my last quarter bill was over £800. so the payback time may now be better than when you did your calculations. It would seem that the 3mm plastic is not a option although it is fairly well sheltered other than the West.Anyway, thank you for your advice.

From: Ron Bower
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] capillary matting
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:40

Anthony,
In the past I have used a weak solution of domestic bleach. That was for ordinary pot plants and did no harm.Maybe orchids, being so sensitive may be damaged. No doubt other more experienced members will be able to advise. I do use it in a tray of water I leave on the floor, it certainly keeps that free of algae. Ronbow.

From: Ron Bower
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE:glazing
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:55

Tony,
Most interesting, can you tell me the cost of the polycarb, I guess it
would be 3mm.
As for the rain water, up here there is a surplus after a very wet winter
and spring. Pity it's so costly to move, you would be welcome to as much as
you would want! Ronbow

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Gomesa crispa
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:30

This is an odont relative which I used to grow long ago, when I had only a
cool house - min winter temp 52 F. It did well treated like cymbidiums - as
cool as possible in the summer, quite wet when growing , and dryish after
flowering.

From: Ronald Newstead
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Glass and Polycarb
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:55

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Information.
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:25

Hello Anthony, I use capillary matting, TWO layers of it, and when the top layer gets a bit 'gungy', I just remove the plants from that section, turn it over, and/or top to bottom it. Possibly someone knows of a good type of harmless disinfectant.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] RE: Glass and Polycarb
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:35

1.What kind of plants do you want to grow „ for example if only
cattleyas, which are fairly short, or phalaenopsis which rarely produce tall
spikes ( they arch , instead) then enough height to stand up in , is
plenty. If you are interested in growing taller things, e.g.some of the
oncidiums or their hybrids, they can produce quite tall spikes „ see my
Oncidium Norman pictures recently -. Also , if you think to use overhead
fans - the sort you see in the tropics ( which I use) then you need height
so that they are well above head height for safety reasons , and to avoid
chopping a spike off if you lift a plant from the bench and need to raise it
above the other plants on the bench to get it out..
2.Extra height also gives extra volume „ and the greater the volume,
the better the temperature control .Small volumes can heat up so fast ;
larger volumes take much longer , and the conditions are more natural. (
Buffering effect)
3.Usually, height means visibility . One does not want the greenhouse
to dominate the garden so that it is all one sees , and most people will
even think of screening ( I have) with this in mind. A taller one is always
going to be more prominent. Then there is , or may be the question of
neighbours , and some people object to the sight of a greenhouse, especially
if by chance the sun is reflected off it and dazzles them . I believe that
any structure below 6 foot is unexceptional „ but you may have to dig a hole
to get the floor down a few feet to achieve this. Nine feet is also a
critical height in Planning regulations.
4.My house is 2.9 m from the finished floor to the top of the ridge,
but the floor is .7 m below the surrounding paving slabs.

The Hartley design ( approximately semi-circular in end view ) as I have ,
has the advantage of providing the extra volume, and giving extra height at
the eaves ( for tall plants) whilst being lower at the ridge than a
conventional pitched roof greenhouse . The usual formula for a greenhouse is
something like ( height at Eaves, e.g. 1.5m minus height at ridge, e.g.
2.4m ) x 3 width , and in this case that would be 3 x 0.9m2.7m about 9
feet. This can be stretched to about 10 foot by making the roof a bit
shallower in angle, as Alton do , with some loss of transmitted light in
winter, when the sun is low in angle ; again the Hartley wins hands down
here because of the greater area of glass at steeper angles .

If you do settle for an Alton „ which is the most usually available ›cedar
wood“ greenhouse , it is wotrh standing it on a brick wall say three or
four courses high to give extra growing space, with the disadvantage of
steps to go and down getting in and out .

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: The good old days and common sense.
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:20

Dennis, your tale of the orchid that you bought from Norman Hayward and the name on the label. Well, I have just had a look at the 'Hardy Orchid Society' web site, and there I did find the article on the name change of some of our orchids.

I see that a certain Richard Bateman seems to be responsible.............lots of posh words way above me. I, and a good friend of mine did once read an article that Mr. Bateman and a Mr Denholm published in a magazine called 'Watsonia', [think that was the name] and in it these two chaps described the Dactlyorchids and how to tell one from another, hybrids etc. etc.

Well, after reading it several times, and then removing all of the unnecessary jargon there was not much remaining. It turned out that these two chaps knew no more than the thousands of other orchid lovers all through the country.

Now on to the re-classification of a certain couple of orchids. Please see the attachment.

I do not see how anyone can group the Lax flowered orchid in the same group as the Pyramidal orchid. The pollinia are so different for a start.

I expect that there is some very remote similarity between every race of human beings on this planet, but I am definitely not Chinese, or African Negro, or Aztec.

Orchis Laxiflora and Orchis Morio will always be an 'Orchis' to me. And an Anacamptis will always be a Pyramidal orchid.

From: Ronald Newstead
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Vannilla orchid in flower
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:50

It has taken me a long time to start sorting out the many photos I took on
my trip to Florida and Havana.
Here is one that I took in the tropical plant institute just outside Havana.
I had never imagined that the vanilla orchid produced such pretty flowers.
Very little else of interest, though.
Ron

From: dennis READ
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] The good old days and common sense.
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:40

I agree but in my cynical old age I'm becoming a little tolerant and understand that the only way many people can earn a living and justify their existance is use intricate scientific methods to confuse the populace, who do not have the government provided laboratories to disagree. Regards
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Club
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:23 PM
Subject: [OrchidTalk] The good old days and common sense.

Now on to the re-classification of a certain couple of orchids. Please see the attachment.

I do not see how anyone can group the Lax flowered orchid in the same group as the Pyramidal orchid. The pollinia are so different for a start.

I expect that there is some very remote similarity between every race of human beings on this planet, but I am definitely not Chinese, or African Negro, or Aztec.

Orchis Laxiflora and Orchis Morio will always be an 'Orchis' to me. And an Anacamptis will always be a Pyramidal orchid.

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] The good old days and common sense.
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:35

Roger Grier wrote:
> I expect that there is some very remote similarity between every race of human beings on this planet, but I am definitely not Chinese, or African Negro, or Aztec.
>
Hmm, perhaps this isn't the way to win friends amongst the people on
this list, but I strongly object to what seems to be your point of view.
To me it has the bitter taste of racism, and shame on you for that; but
do correct me if I am mistaken.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: The proof of the pudding, is in the eating, so it is said.
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:40

Remember how pleased I was with the orchids from the 'Italian Nursery', well, my hybrid Trichopilia is in full bloom.

It has five blooms..........should be six, but a 'Night Raider' got one of them, damn!

And I can already see a new growth just starting. Promises to be a very good plant.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Racism???
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:40

Thanks for your comments, and maybe mine came over to you in the wrong way. I trust we may meet up one day and then you can see what I am like. What I meant by my remark was that all humans are similar, but we are divided up into different races that look alike and are alike.

If you asked my friends and ex work colleagues about my thoughts on the colour of peoples skin and their religion, then they would tell you that I was most probably at the top of the pile for getting on with all people.

Have a read of Dennis's comments and you might get some idea about what we are complaining about.

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] The proof of the pudding, is in the eating, so it is said.
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:45

> Hi all,
>
> Remember how pleased I was with the orchids from the
> 'Italian Nursery', well, my hybrid Trichopilia is in
> full bloom.
>
> It has five blooms..........should be six, but a
> 'Night Raider' got one of them, damn!
>
> And I can already see a new growth just starting.
> Promises to be a very good plant.
>
> Thanks again Andy for your telling us about this
> nursery.
>
> Kind regards, Rocky.

From: Geoffrey Hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Orchid Pictures on the web...
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:15

The NCCPG website - www.nccpg.com - has many pages, always decorated
with pictures of flowers of one kind or another. I have just supplied 55
pictures of Paphs for the purpose, which I understand will be there for the
next 3 (?) months. You can find the name of any plant by mousing over the
picture.

From: Ron Bower
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: The good old days and common sense.
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:15

Uh-huh, not here we go again! I hope.Ronbow.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jan"
To:
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 10:38 AM
Subject: [OrchidTalk] Re: The good old days and common sense.

> Roger Grier wrote:
>> I expect that there is some very remote similarity between every race of
>> human beings on this planet, but I am definitely not Chinese, or African
>> Negro, or Aztec.
>>
> Hmm, perhaps this isn't the way to win friends amongst the people on
> this list, but I strongly object to what seems to be your point of view.
> To me it has the bitter taste of racism, and shame on you for that; but
> do correct me if I am mistaken.
>
> /jan
>
>
> --
>
> This mail is from Orchid-Talk, for subscribers to the orchid-talk list and
> digest. The contents are the responsibility of the originator of the
> message and not Orchid-Talk unless clearly identified as such. Forwarding
> of a message may not be taken as an endorsement of its contents.
>
> Reply to: Orchid Talk List
> To leave this list click on the link:
>
> and send the resulting email.
> website: www.orchid-talk.co.uk
>

From: Ronald Newstead
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Re: The good old days and common sense.
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:50

Jan,20
1. This group is not about politics or being politically correct. It's
about
orchids.

2. I, like Roger, am verging on the old codger stage, in fact rather
more so
than him, but I have to say that anyone who could wish to pretend that
he is
indistinguishable from a Chinese or an African black person has to be
very
divorced from reality.

-----Original Message-----
From: jan 20
Sent: domingo, 12 de Junho de 2005 10:39
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: [OrchidTalk] Re: The good old days and common sense.

Roger Grier wrote:
> I expect that there is some very remote similarity between every race
of
human beings on this planet, but I am definitely not Chinese, or African
Negro, or Aztec.
>20
Hmm, perhaps this isn't the way to win friends amongst the people on
this list, but I strongly object to what seems to be your point of view.
To me it has the bitter taste of racism, and shame on you for that; but
do correct me if I am mistaken.

From: Ronald Newstead
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: MGI PhotoSuite 4 digital photo
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:45

It has taken me a long time to sort out all the photos from Florida, Havana
and Dijon but the job is almost finished.
In the meantime, here is one of the Bournemouth Society's stand. Well, at
least it shows that I was there!
Cheers
Ron

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Racism??? - an apology
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:40

Roger Grier wrote:
> Hi Jan,
>
> Thanks for your comments, and maybe mine came over to you in the wrong way. I trust we may meet up one day and then you can see what I am like. What I meant by my remark was that all humans are similar, but we are divided up into different races that look alike and are alike.
>
> If you asked my friends and ex work colleagues about my thoughts on the colour of peoples skin and their religion, then they would tell you that I was most probably at the top of the pile for getting on with all people.
>
> Have a read of Dennis's comments and you might get some idea about what we are complaining about.
>
> Hope we meet up one day.
>
Ah, well, it was bound to happen...

So, once again I have put my foot in my mouth and had a good taste;
though 'good' perhaps isn't quite the word. Please accept my sincerest
apology, Roger. I am a cantankerous old man (from Denmark, just to add
to it) and there is nothing in this world that gets me going, often in
the wrong direction, more than what I perceive as racism.

Taxonomy and phylogeny, incidentally, are probably my two main interests
so I am very interested in any discussion about these things, although I
am still far from mastering the subjects, in particular in Orchidacea.

From: aeranthes
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: orchids and people
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:05

Yes I agree with Rocky! Orchids are diverse and so are people! Rocky is one of the good guys. - Jean

From: aeranthes
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: papahs
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:05

Stunning photographs Geoff and what an excellent idea to have the names popping up like that. Thanks for the url. Jean

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Denmark Jan.
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:55

Thanks very much for your E-mail, and I am glad that we have sorted things out........it's normally me that jumps in with both feet.

However, I am glad to read that you study taxonomy and phylogeny......what is the study of Phylogeny please.

I guess my trying to describe why this one orchid was re-named may have sounded a bit awkward. What I meant was this:- If anyone was asked what an African Negro looked like, then they would describe the person, likewise a Chinese person and an Aztec. They all may be slightly different but come from the same race.

Hence my annoyance that the orchid Orchis laxiflora had been re-named/classified as an Anacamptis [Pyramidal orchid type].

From: dennis READ
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] The proof of the pudding, is in the eating, so it is said.
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:15

At last years Newbury show I bought a Trichopillia hybrid - tortillus x turialbae. Itlooks remakably like yours. Is it the same cross?Mine has been in bloom for a week and it is now in a darkened cool room trying to save it for newbury. redards
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Club
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: [OrchidTalk] The proof of the pudding, is in the eating, so it is said.

Remember how pleased I was with the orchids from the 'Italian Nursery', well, my hybrid Trichopilia is in full bloom.

It has five blooms..........should be six, but a 'Night Raider' got one of them, damn!

And I can already see a new growth just starting. Promises to be a very good plant.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Trichopilia hybrid.
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:30

Guess I will also move mine to a shadier, cooler position. Wonder if it will give off any scent??

From: jan
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Denmark Jan.
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:35

Roger Grier wrote:
> Hello Jan,
>
> Thanks very much for your E-mail, and I am glad that we have sorted things out........it's normally me that jumps in with both feet.
>
Thank you for taking things so gracefully, and once again, my apologies!

> However, I am glad to read that you study taxonomy and phylogeny......what is the study of Phylogeny please.
>
Phylogeny - I have never actually seen a definition of either taxonomy
or phylogeny, but as I perceive it, taxonomy deals with the naming of
things (in principle anything, but I suppose predominantly living
organisms) and the formalities surrounding this, whereas phylogeny is to
do with the evolution and teh biological 'relatedness' of species etc.

I still have the first book I came across about this subject: 'Phylogeny
and Classification of the Orchid Family' by Robert L. Dressler,
Cambridge University Press. It's full of such things as subfamilies,
phylads and tribes, very interesting ;-)

> I guess my trying to describe why this one orchid was re-named may have sounded a bit awkward. What I meant was this:- If anyone was asked what an African Negro looked like, then they would describe the person, likewise a Chinese person and an Aztec. They all may be slightly different but come from the same race.
>
To be honest, there wasn't really anything wrong with your explanation,
which I realised once my brain had caught up with my temper. As many
others on this list have already pointed out, we are here because we
like to talk about orchids. I do, however, feel very strongly about this
issue, sorry if that offends some. I am of the opinion that many of the
atrocities that happen in our world could have been avoided if only the
overwhelming majority of people that are decent, would dare to stand up
to bullying and other indecency while the perpetrators were still
without power.

> Hence my annoyance that the orchid Orchis laxiflora had been re-named/classified as an Anacamptis [Pyramidal orchid type].
>
Unfortunately I can't claim to be in any way an expert. However, my best
book on the subject (a book series about all the plants of Scandinavia
written in the 40es) states that Orchis and Anacamptis are very closely
related in all characters - they differ only in certain details in the
structure of the flower. In translation from Danish (sorry if the
language isn't perfect): In Anacamptis the lip has two folds at the base
between which is a narrow groove, that leads to the cavity of the long
spur. The pollinia are carried by one viscidium and protected by a
1-roomed 'purse'. Orchis has to distinct viscidia and the 'purse' is has
two rooms.

I suspect the question of where exactly Anacamptis begins and Orchis
ends is a contentious issue; fortunately the plants themselves don't
seem to mind, they know what they are. I sometimes feel that our
attempts at defining species, genera and families are a bit silly and
that nature is probably having a good laugh. I mean, look at the
dandelions - apparently we have more than 300 species in UK alone. They
all look the same, but apparently there are small differences, and each
type is constant because dandelions are apomicts (they develop seed
without pollination) - so we have to call them species. On the other
hand, orchids set viable seed no matter how they are cross pollinated,
understand it who may.

> I used to be very friendly with a sailor from Denmark.
>
> Jan, do you have Anacamptis and Orchis types growing in Denmark?
>
Yes, we have Anacamptis pyramidalis, but it is rare, and several Orchis
- not O. laxiflora, though. I don't live there anymore, I moved to UK 6
years ago, and I will probably move to China in a few years' time, as my
wife is Chinese.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Wild orchids.
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:20

Is it just Orchids in the plant world that are constantly having name changes???

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: orchid names, taxonomy and common sense
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:15

There's been quite a lot said about the inconvenience of name changes, professionals trying to confuse the populace at large and having nothing better to do to earn their crust, and good ol' common sense. At the risk of offending everyone but really intending to pour oil on troubled water, may I add mi penn'th?

1. While it has to be admitted that, in any profession or occupation, there are some awkward customers it must also be said, in defence of taxonomists, that they are simply trying to clarify a classification that is getting better and better (not necessarily more convenient!) through their activities. If you don't believe that, then try using the alternative archaic 'common' names for your plants and see how long you can go before causing even more confusion. Scientific nomenclature is far from perfect but, on the whole it works well, has international consistency and will inevitably keep changing as long as more knowledge is acquired. Classification isn't discovered, it is invented by humans in the hope of reflecting nature to some extent.

2. 'Common sense is' a wonderful thing, provided you operate only in the environment in which you acquired that 'common sense' (see Einstein's comments on it). Unfortunately, classifying or even identifying plants isn't 'common sense' any more than nuclear physics, cosmology or higher mathematics are common sense. Certainly Darwin and Wallace, and Gregor Mendel would be most insulted if we were to imply that their pioneering efforts on evolution and genetics were nothing but the common sense of their day! (Bet they'd have had trouble with switching a PC off using the 'start' button . . . and yet computer operation is common sense to many 5 year olds now)

3. The fact is, surely, that most of us reading or writing to this forum are not professionals in the world of orchid systematics. Most of us are either very amateur growers, a few may be professional growers or (orchid) biologists. That doesn't detract from the skills of many of our group who may be wizards at growing but hopeless at taxonomy, or wizards at taxonomic procedure and hopeless growers. Of course, a few may be both and some of us are neither. All of us are acquiring experience.

4. The older we get the fonder we seem to be of the good ol' days but, of course, we could go back far enough to the even simpler days when ignorance of orchids (and much else) reigned supreme and there were far less than 30,000 species or so known to deal with.

Nobody, I think, spends their professional life hell-bent on simply confusing and annoying the rest of us (at leat, without being sussed-out by peers). I guess it's common sense that not many orchid professionals are also computer virus authors . . . . . . . of course.
Isn't there an adage from somewhere . . "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" or at least listen to 'em.
(Oh, and James Bateman was no mean orchid expert)

MONTH	DATE	DATE	DATE	DATE	MONTH	DATE	DATE	DATE	DATE
January	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31	February	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-28
March	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31	April	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-30
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November	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-30	December	1-7	8-14	15-21	22-31

2005 Archived Messages

June 8-14